Possibility to repeat a GE level instead of advancing

[Prinza the Hunter]

...the goal [] is NOT to get more and more rewards, but to motivate more people - especially smaller ones - to be able and willing to play more GE, and contribute more to their guilds.

From my (short) experience, the problem is not so much motivating players to play more GE but to play GE at all! On four worlds, I see that between 1/3 and 2/3 of guild members don't even do the first three stages of Expedition: the stages where it is almost impossible to lose out!

I was pleased to see the GE featured a little in the Summer Event quests, though I think they should have been mandatory rather than optional and for fewer stages rather than 12, which could be daunting for those who have never played it.

Since the player will get less reward (how do you give less of one unit?) on a repeated level, there would have to be a pop-up box informing the player of this, so they don't think they are just going to get a repeat of the last attempt.

On the whole, I don't see how this will work well in practice but do see it would be heavily used, requiring a lot of rebalancing.

 

[DeletedUser103370]

From my (short) experience, the problem is not so much motivating players to play more GE but to play GE at all! On four worlds, I see that between 1/3 and 2/3 of guild members don't even do the first three stages of Expedition: the stages where it is almost impossible to lose out!

I was pleased to see the GE featured a little in the Summer Event quests, though I think they should have been mandatory rather than optional and for fewer stages rather than 12, which could be daunting for those who have never played it.

Since the player will get less reward (how do you give less of one unit?) on a repeated level, there would have to be a pop-up box informing the player of this, so they don't think they are just going to get a repeat of the last attempt.

On the whole, I don't see how this will work well in practice but do see it would be heavily used, requiring a lot of rebalancing.

You're right, the ones who wouldn't play GE anyways, unlikely to start because of this.
On the other hand we for example have a lot of smaller players, who are happy to even do level 1, with a change like this GE wouldn't be over for them either, after completing level 1.

And I think it wouldn't be hard to balance, in fact the current balance of the levels don't even have to be touched, you'd only need to figure out a formula how to reward repeats.

Just for another example, repeats could be done in a way, that they only give basic stuff as reward (coins/supplies/basic buildings, perhaps troops etc.), still they'd count in the guild's standing.
This could change a lot, since now a big player can accumulate uncomparably more points in a GE than a small one, now small but dedicated ones would be able to close the gap at least a bit.

 

[joesoap]

This could change a lot, since now a big player can accumulate uncomparably more points in a GE than a small one, now small but dedicated ones would be able to close the gap at least a bit.

isnt this more likely to widen the gap, small players get to repeat level 1 & get a few extra points for themselves & their guilds, big players can repeat level 3 & get a lot more points for themselves & their guilds, plus it will likely be easier for big players to do far more repeats as they will have a lot more units from traz

 

[DeletedUser103370]

You're right, the ones who wouldn't play GE anyways, unlikely to start because of this.
On the other hand we for example have a lot of smaller players, who are happy to even do level 1, with a change like this GE wouldn't be over for them either, after completing level 1.

isnt this more likely to widen the gap, small players get to repeat level 1 & get a few extra points for themselves & their guilds, big players can repeat level 3 & get a lot more points for themselves & their guilds, plus it will likely be easier for big players to do far more repeats as they will have a lot more units from traz

Perhaps, it all depends on the number of smalls/bigs using it.
But I think if smalls using it more, and bigs using it more, then we're already winning!
There is only one thing for sure, for a vast number of players higher levels are not accessible, and for them, finishing level 1 or perhaps level 2 means the end of GE every week!
With an approach like this, they would be able to use it more too, from there it only depends on the dedication of the individuals, how much they exploit the possibilities.

After all, the goal is -like with all other features usually- to involve as many players as possible, for as long as possible, which is exponentially true for features like GE, because it's essentially a co-op effort, -rewarding of course the player too-, but giving the most bonuses to the collectives, aka guilds.

 

[DeletedUser12400]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

I personally can't support idea like this especially if it will increase participation further however I would definitely look forward bonus stages e.g. at each levels end which would not impact guild results but only for players to gain extra rewards.

i think this idea might take away a players incentive to try to be better, if players can repeat level 1 rather than trying to take on the level 2 then some players will take that easier option & they will take that option every week out of habit, at least now they might try level 2, even if they can only manage to get through the first few encounters, and every week they might try to do better than the week before, basically it gives then something to work towards

 

[DeletedUser103370]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

I personally can't support idea like this especially if it will increase participation further however I would definitely look forward bonus stages e.g. at each levels end which would not impact guild results but only for players to gain extra rewards.

Hmm, now this I don't really understand, so you saying it's better if less people are using it?
Regarding the bonus levels, it's not a bad idea, but the way you proposed it would strengthen the individual effect, and lessen the co-op effect, and I'd do the contrary.
There is already way too many features favoring separatism, we need the features to support cooperation and team-play.
Thus I think it's in all of our interest, to involve as many as possible, and to play together as much as possible.

 

[DeletedUser12400]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

Hmm, now this I don't really understand, so you saying it's better if less people are using it?

I'm saying that this idea actually make the game easier

 

[DeletedUser103370]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

I'm saying that this idea actually make the game easier

Sorry to say that, but it has nothing to do with the hardness of the game...
You would need exactly the same dedication, you'd need to fight the same, nothing easier than before...

Actually the very opposite. If more people are using more levels, then to be successful you'd need to do the same.
That means you'd have to spend more time and put more effort.

It'd be easier if I was saying, make level 2 more easily achievable...

In comparison with this proposal : https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...elect-production-buildings-and-use-them.9129/
You see this really makes the game easier, still it's getting implemented.

 

[DeletedUser12400]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

Sorry to say that, but it has nothing to do with the hardness of the game...
You would need exactly the same dedication, you'd need to fight the same, nothing easier than before...

Actually the very opposite. If more people are using more levels, then to be successful you'd need to do the same.
That means you'd have to spend more time and put more effort.

I don't want to debate with you or argue with you because everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs and opinions, but if it has nothing to do with the hardness of the game then where is the issue to finish all the levels

 

[DeletedUser103370]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

I don't want to debate with you or argue with you because everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs and opinions, but if it has nothing to do with the hardness of the game then where is the issue to finish all levels

I don't understand. If someone can't progress to further levels anyway, then where is the issue?
If someone can, and higher levels give more impressive results, then where is the issue?
If repeating only gives basic rewards, then where is the issue?
You'd still have the same motivation to progress.

The only difference is that lower level players would be able to play more.
If that's not a good thing, then I don't know what is.

We can easily analyze all concern and probably outcomes together,
for example if you say that you're concerned that why would you progress further if you can repeat, then we can do a little experiment.

In an imagined situation, if this was implemented in a certain way what would you do?

1. you finish level 1, then you're in front of the choice, advance, or repeat
2. you know that if you repeat, you won't get any special stuff (including diamonds for example)
3. you know that if you repeat, you will get less and worst rewards than if you advance
4. you know that if you advance you get more points for you and your guild
5. you have the tools to advance, so it only depends on your choice

What would you do?

 

[DeletedUser12400]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

I don't really understand

I don't understand.

The issue seems to me that you actually can't understand.

In comparison with this proposal : https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...elect-production-buildings-and-use-them.9129/
You see this really makes the game easier, still it's getting implemented.

Now I can't understand your comprasion and what it has to do with your idea nor I'm aware of that it's getting implemented.

 

[DeletedUser103370]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

The issue seems to me that you actually can't understand.

Now I can't understand your comprasion and what it has to do with your idea nor I'm aware of that it getting implemented.

Well, if I don't understand, then maybe you could explain what you mean!
Regarding that idea, Idk what "Scorching Hot" means, but I thought that's very close to being implemented.
But regardless of that, under that idea you didn't say that you can't support it, because it makes the game easier, while in fact it does.

You know it's easy to throw words and down-vote an idea, what would be ideal if you could explain exactly how you think it would be bad in practice.
Then we could figure out a way together (or not) how to avoid those concerns.

 

[DeletedUser12400]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

Well, if I don't understand, then maybe you could explain what you mean!
Regarding that idea, Idk what "Scorching Hot" means, but I thought that's very close to being implemented.
But regardless of that, under that idea you didn't say that you can't support it, because it makes the game easier, while in fact it does.

You know it's easy to throw words and down-vote an idea, what would be ideal if you could explain exactly how you think it would be bad in practice.

I mentioned earlier I won't debate however we can discuss it in private. I don't support comparing but In fact it makes things easier with less clicks however in your case you are making a huge impact on guild expeditions.

 

[DeletedUser103370]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

I mentioned earlier I won't debate however we can discuss it in private. I don't support comparing but In fact it makes things easier with less clicks however in your case you are making a huge impact on guild expeditions.

Come on
You don't debate, but you try to argue my points. What you expect now, that I won't reply?
Yes it makes a huge impact on Guild Expeditions, not by making it easier or harder, but by making it possible for small players to contribute more.

ps I'm not against talking in private, but then what's the point of having these proposals, if not that if someone has his concerns about it, then we try to figure out if there is a solution, or it can only be solved by dropping the idea all together? I believe all your concerns (what I got up until now) can be addressed by simple rules in place, if not then I'm happy to hear why, and how it would be bad in practice.

 

[joesoap]

what hasn't been mentioned anywhere is the effect the repeats would have on the guild championship & the %ages in them, at the minute each person can only do a maximum of 64 encounters, will repeating level 1 4 times give 64 encounters? can players do more than 64 encounters through repeating levels? will each repeated encounter add guild power? the maximum % a guild can get at the minute is 133%, will guilds be able to get more than this by repeating? can the players that find GE easy be able to get big %ages without the entire guild taking part?
GE was introduced as a guild feature that benefitted the guild & players are encouraged to take part because they get individual rewards, the guilds that do well every week work together, they encourage everybody to take part, they help to build attack gbs of the players that struggle, they explain about units & what might work well against those in the encounter they are struggling with, they try to teach them & work with them to get better so that everybody benefits, doesnt this idea more it more an individual feature & take away the need to work together to get good results

another concern i have is that this could backfire & put smaller players under more pressure, if a player cant finish level 2 then most guilds will understand that they arent able to, however if they finish level 1 will they be expected to keep repeating it even though they may not have the goods to negiotate or the units to fight, will guilds take the attitude that "you did it once so do it again", could this lead to players deliberately not finishing a level

 

[DeletedUser103370]

what hasn't been mentioned anywhere is the effect the repeats would have on the guild championship & the %ages in them, at the minute each person can only do a maximum of 64 encounters, will repeating level 1 4 times give 64 encounters? can players do more than 64 encounters through repeating levels? will each repeated encounter add guild power? the maximum % a guild can get at the minute is 133%, will guilds be able to get more than this by repeating? can the players that find GE easy be able to get big %ages without the entire guild taking part?
GE was introduced as a guild feature that benefitted the guild & players are encouraged to take part because they get individual rewards, the guilds that do well every week work together, they encourage everybody to take part, they help to build attack gbs of the players that struggle, they explain about units & what might work well against those in the encounter they are struggling with, they try to teach them & work with them to get better so that everybody benefits, doesnt this idea more it more an individual feature & take away the need to work together to get good results

another concern i have is that this could backfire & put smaller players under more pressure, if a player cant finish level 2 then most guilds will understand that they arent able to, however if they finish level 1 will they be expected to keep repeating it even though they may not have the goods to negiotate or the units to fight, will guilds take the attitude that "you did it once so do it again", could this lead to players deliberately not finishing a level

These are the questions what entirely would depend what way we chose. Let me explain. First there is no consensus over what limit should be imposed or not. If let's say we agree that there should be limits on the number of repeats can be done, then, and only then we can start to think about how many repeats, overall repeat number or by levels, and so on.

But if other limits would be imposed, for example one could say that let's make restrictions based on the age of the player. Ie. if you're under IA then you'd be able to repeat X times, OR not even limiting the number of encounters but perhaps a gradually less rewards scenario, you name it. Then we would have to figure out an entirely different rule-set.

And the problem is nearly never the lack of knowledge. IF a player has low bonuses, or no Traz, or a low level Traz still, then no amount of knowledge will help him after a certain point! An established player has a wide range of stuff to choose from too, from special buildings like Rogues and other special units. So for small players this would certainly provide a way to be able to participate further! And believe me there are a lot of players like that, and we can only hope it stays that way in the future too, because that means we have new players joining the game again and again.

If you like any of the solutions, or you have your own, then we can certainly tailor the rules around it, it's not an exact science, I'm not sure what way would be the best, I only know the goal I'm aiming at, namely to provide more participation for smaller players.

Regarding the higher pressure, I can only say that entirely depends on the guild, and it can't and shouldn't be blamed on the possibilities! There are guilds which demands participation to a certain level, others refuse to even participate! Everyone can find their place, I don't think a change like this would change the attitude of guilds, demanding ones would demand further, others wouldn't.

Just another example, in my guild everyone is required to do at least 8 encounters. Now that 8 is not even the finish of level 1, and wouldn't increase just because you could repeat. On the other hand, some more dedicated but low level players would be able to somewhat "compensate" the lack of interest of the rest, if they could repeat and not quit after finishing level 1. Because even with this requirement we always have at least 5-10% of the guild who doesn't even start GE.

 

[joesoap]

you are proposing to make big changes to a weekly game feature so you have to think about all these things & their solutions & put them in your idea proposal, otherwise what would you like players to think about....if your idea boils down to let players repeat GE levels & give them more rewards (i would love to keep repeating the levels to get free units in new ages) & thier gulds more power which levels them quicker then how many players are going to say 'no thanks'

 

[DeletedUser103370]

you are proposing to make big changes to a weekly game feature so you have to think about all these things & their solutions & put them in your idea proposal, otherwise what would you like players to think about....if your idea boils down to let players repeat GE levels & give them more rewards (i would love to keep repeating the levels to get free units in new ages) & thier gulds more power which levels them quicker then how many players are going to say 'no thanks'

Exactly, didn't I do that? If you read back I proposed 2 pages of texts already. First I gave a possible scenario, someone said ok but what if? Then I proposed another one, someone else said ok, but what if
I believe any of these are viable if adjusted correctly! But think about it, there was many proposals for mini games before GE, when they finally introduced it, it didn't happen exactly how it was proposed before! More than that, after the implementation, they started tweaking it, because as it went ahead inno got the feedback. They started to see, ok now it gives too many diamonds, let's reduce it. Ok it gives too less troops, let's increase it, and so on. This is no different. I'm pretty sure that whatever way this would be introduced tomorrow, it would require adjustments, right until they find an acceptable balance!
All in all that's why I'm worried less about the exact rules, and more about the goal.
But I believe I proposed more solutions in this single idea, than 3 other "usual" proposals combined.

ps. your last question, how many of them would say "no thanks", in other words how many people would use this feature or not, that's again something I can't know. I can only look around the people I know, and myself. Even I don't think I'd use it always, perhaps when I feel I like it I would, other times I wouldn't. But again, it's no different than GE itself. Some can't be bothered, and they won't be bothered just because you can repeat, that's for sure. And they are not required too, the point is, they can if they want to! I believe the same goes here, the point is that you have the chance, even if you're small and relatively newbie.

And @joesoap now you gave me a 20 minutes work to summarize all these in the concerns section

 

[joesoap]

And @joesoap now you gave me a 20 minutes work to summarize all these in the concerns section

this time when you are summarizing them can you put me as a she please

 

[joesoap]

ps. your last question, how many of them would say "no thanks", in other words how many people would use this feature or not, that's again something I can't know. I can only look around the people I know, and myself. Even I don't think I'd use it always, perhaps when I feel I like it I would, other times I wouldn't. But again, it's no different than GE itself. Some can't be bothered, and they won't be bothered just because you can repeat, that's for sure. And they are not required too, the point is, they can if they want to! I believe the same goes here, the point is that you have the chance, even if you're small and relatively newbie.

you dont even think you'd use it all the time, casual players probably wont use it much (but its to encourage them to play more), but dedicated players & guilds will use it extensively, and the gap between the 2 sets of players will grow, i dont think you comprehend the huge impact & imbalance this change could make
in some worlds i struggle to finish level 1 but in another i can finish level 4 without issue, i would love to keep repeating it there as i will always gain more than i lose