Inequality in Guild Battlegrounds

[klods hans]

Well, let's start the discussion
Guild expedition:
The only rewards that are good here are the Forgotten Temple and the feathered serpent statue, everything else is useless. But it doesn't require any diamonds, goods, or high bonuses to finish so I am fine with those rewards. In case you are active in 1.9x threads you can finish all five levels in around 15 minutes so it's not even a time-demanding activity.
GvG:
I used to play GvG so I am well aware of the costs, but because Inno never brought it to the mobile version of the game, GvG is up to this day being played by less than 10% of the player base so a completely useless feature for the majority of the player base. But for those who play it, it's activity for up to 10 minutes a day in most cases.
Attacking neighborhood:
If I remember correctly you can have up to 100 neighbors so 100 fights to do, can be done in less than 10 minutes easily. In case you are into plundering it takes significantly longer, but most people collect in time so I really never saw it as something that is worth investing the time into.

So far activities have been for roughly 20-30 minutes a day including collection, so don't know where you came with the idea the game had so many add-ons it required a lot of time to go through them

Now GbG:
First of all, you fight once every 8 hours, not 4 (you take sectors from the enemy guild 4h lock, then they it from you another 4h lock). Only around 20 to 30% of sectors on the map were possible to take with 5 siege camps so why are you still repeating the fairy tale about attrition-free GbG that was never true? I would put GbG into two scenarios:
1. You played against a guild that was capable of beating you
In this scenario you had to take as many edge sectors as possible, as many times as possible, those were 0 to 3 SC sectors so the winner was based on total guild attrition capability and tactic.
2. You played against guilds that were never capable of beating you
Here you could ignore edge sectors and focus on the map rotation in case there was a guild capable of doing the rotaions with you. This was indeed the most effective way to play GbG. As the entire map was taken in one go, sectors were opening one after another and most of the sectors could be taken with 4 siege camps, yet there were still roughly 20-30% of those with 3 SC only where the attrition build-up was a bit higher.

In general, most of the sectors you were taking had a 96% attrition reduction, and minorities had a 72% and 100% attrition reduction.
As you mentioned the benefit of smaller guilds was obviously fewer people to share the fights with so indeed if you wanted maximum out of GbG you were playing in a smaller guild. To be a successful fighter and successful guild it required time, dedication, and of course some money. Only with high attack stats, Traz, and guild goods producing GBs you could become a successful fighter a successful guild needed to have players across the globe to cover the entire day, and members willing to log in and fight on a regular basis is not an easy feat.
So yes your placement, development, and resources were based on your skill, activity, and success of your guild which is far better than pre-GbG time when your position and development was based on the amount of year you sat through.

Why do I think the "new" GbG is wrong?

In short, for much more resources you get far fewer rewards.
A longer explanation would be:
1. Guild goods
New support structures require much more goods than the old ones, so players need to build and level guild-supporting buildings much more than before.
2. Diamond costs
New structures cost much more diamonds to complete than the old ones.
3. Attacking army bonuses
Due to a maximum 80% attrition reduction, you are forced to fight much more on higher attrition levels than before so you are losing troops than ever before. So especially in SAT when troops aren't that strong you are forced to fight far below your maximum attrition so you are not losing more droops than you can get or you are forced to add hundreds if not thousands to your bonuses.

So you are forced to pay more goods, pay more diamonds, and pay for more event buildings to be at last able to get a fraction of the fights you were getting before the change. Why should anyone be interested in paying more for less?

All this explains pretty well why a change to GBG was needed.

 

[Sacahari3l]

Because it is more interesting than The Game of Auto-Clicking?
You are not *forced* to fill every building slot or to pay diamonds to auto-complete buildings, and in my guild's current GBG map nobody appears to be doing so, or to be building the most expensive structures - at the moment all the guilds are going for mid-level , and often not filling more than one slot. Of course nobody has worked out the 'optimum' strategy yet, so we are all going cautiously and experimenting to see how it works out. The ebb and flow of battle is all over the place; Green took an early lead and put a lot of structures in the centre, then got nibbled away from all sides even against 200+ battles per sector. We got to the centre, were driven back to a couple of outside sectors, currently hold about a third of the map with one centre sector and are outscoring everyone else for the moment but are a long way behind the leaders on points. It has been a lot of fun so far, and participation is up thanks to the novelty value.

(The most popular building so far seems to be the Guild Command Post, from observation...)

You indeed don't need to fill every slot as 80% is the attrition reduction limit and I never said you need to fill every slot, you didn't need to do that even during old GbG. We keep building the way all sectors can be taken with an 80% attrition reduction while minimalizing the costs.
You were hitting auto-battle before, you do it now nothing has changed in this regard. You were taking the entire map before, you do it now too.
The only noticeable difference so far is the incredible drop in the number of fights done by active fighters, the hardest hit took the SAT players without really high bonuses as they can't even fight towards their attrition limit due to heavy losses of troops. Then there are increased costs of goods and more diamond spend also annoying but manageable somehow.
Very noticeable is a drop in player activity as most run out of attrition they don't feel the need to show up until reset.
Dont really know what some people love about this change, you get fewer rewards for higher costs. Only those who used to be pinned in HQ seem to love the change due to the fact Inno hard screwed active and successful players and guilds pretty hard.

 

[Sacahari3l]

Well Inno surely you can see that almost everyone agrees your Gbg changes are beyond stupid. You have a simple choice either put it back as it was until you work out a way to do it well of accept the fact that you are going to lose lots of players and the ones that do spend are going to be far less inclined to keep paying your wages when you make changes that piss off almost everyone

I would not say everyone dislikes those changes, some people are happy they can play less. But less successful guilds and players seem to love this change as Inno finely heard their prayers to put a short leash on the active and successful part of the community.
From Inno's perspective, quite a major problem I see is that this part of a community that falls in love with these changes usually doesn't buy any diamonds

 

[klods hans]

Very noticeable is a drop in player activity as most run out of attrition they don't feel the need to show up until reset.

No, there's a noticeable increase in player activity. When top fighters run out of attrition faster and only show up at reset, it gives MORE players a chance to increase their activity.

 

[klods hans]

Inno finely heard their prayers to put a short leash on the active and successful part of the community.

They put a leash on you because you "exploited the system" by checkerboarding the map with swap rotations. Some players even cheating with auto clickers. It destroyed the purpose of GBG. People got sick of it and stayed away from GBG.

 

[joesoap]

I would not say everyone dislikes those changes, some people are happy they can play less. But less successful guilds and players seem to love this change as Inno finely heard their prayers to put a short leash on the active and successful part of the community.
From Inno's perspective, quite a major problem I see is that this part of a community that falls in love with these changes usually doesn't buy any diamonds

Inno have been changes to the game since it started, with every change some people like the changes, some people dont, and they tend to be the 1s that come to the forum spouting nonsense about how it has ruined the game & hoards of players are going to leave & the game is going to come to an abrupt end, as yet that hasnt happened
I dont think you're able to say what players buy diamonds, its not just fighters that buy diamonds, non fighters buy diamonds for expansions although with the amount of diamonds that were rewarded in the old gbg i'm sure some players were able to stop buying them

 

[Deleted member 127677]

Well Inno surely you can see that almost everyone agrees your Gbg changes are beyond stupid. You have a simple choice either put it back as it was until you work out a way to do it well of accept the fact that you are going to lose lots of players and the ones that do spend are going to be far less inclined to keep paying your wages when you make changes that piss off almost everyone

No they don’t. ‘Almost everyone’ equates to maybe half the posts I see, none with much more of a complaint beyond that they can no longer get 10k fights a season and it’s more taxing this way since they lose troops. I’ve also seen people say it’s now boring because they are done with their attrition in just 10 minutes. Well, if they are, there is clearly no strategy going on, or any competition on their board. I see plenty of options to keep checking the map, and saving your fights up for when truly needed, like when you have to compete for a sector, instead of just aimlessly clicking somewhere. That obviously is depending on opponents, but also on the guild’s overall ability to compete or plan.

if you wanted maximum out of GbG

focus on the map rotation in case there was a guild capable of doing the rotaions with you. This was indeed the most effective way to play GbG

to get a fraction of the fights

Much of that full message illustrates exactly the point above.

Do remember that those who take to the forums do so because they feel strongly one way or another about something. There is also a silent majority who will either vote with their feet (not seeing that so far, at all) or keep enjoying. I see a very good participation in my guild, and some members who never used to say much one way or other are happy about how they are managing and pushing themselves. I take that as a good sign. The ultimate proof of how the change is perceived will be in how many do keep playing it, maybe in what income it generates, and how many people stick with the game. So far, I’m not seeing even remotely the same pushback as there was against GE5, but surprisingly, those who stuck with that feature anlso are quite happy now. It also seems that GE5 was only a first step towards an overhaul of the game, Gbg is now already getting a bit of a cross fertilisation with the Forgotten Temple boost, and it will go back with the Tourney Grounds being useful in turn for GE. There actually seems to be some thought to what is being brought out, and for my part, I’m happy about that also.

 

[Deleted member 127677]

No, there's a noticeable increase in player activity. When top fighters run out of attrition faster and only show up at reset, it gives MORE players a chance to increase their activity.

Quite right. Everyone who was not a ‘top’ fighter (read greedy guildie, in my book) has a chance at doing what they can.

Dont really know what some people love about this change, you get fewer rewards for higher costs. Only those who used to be pinned in HQ seem to love the change due to the fact Inno hard screwed active and successful players and guilds pretty hard.

Demonstrating once again what you think is wrong. ‘Fewer rewards’. I’m fine with that, Gbg was never about the fps or dimes, welcome as I found them at the time.

 

[Sacahari3l]

No they don’t. ‘Almost everyone’ equates to maybe half the posts I see, none with much more of a complaint beyond that they can no longer get 10k fights a season and it’s more taxing this way since they lose troops. I’ve also seen people say it’s now boring because they are done with their attrition in just 10 minutes. Well, if they are, there is clearly no strategy going on, or any competition on their board. I see plenty of options to keep checking the map, and saving your fights up for when truly needed, like when you have to compete for a sector, instead of just aimlessly clicking somewhere.

From this comment, it's absolutely clear you do not play GbG on a competitive level and you never did. When 5 sectors open and you have only a few people online cause they lost drive due to this change or it's just an inconvenient time you still need to take them. So yes those people will run out of attrition in 10 minutes. Regarding how many people are enjoying this change is meaningless as the only important aspect is if Innos profits from GbG are going to tank or not and those profits are carried by mostly by competitive players who used to stick around the day not by players who used to do 10 figts a day.
So yes it all comes down to how angry those active players gonna be due to the fact they lost tons of forge points, definitely, I am not happy for being screwed up in favor of placeholder guilds which used to spend 11 days in HQ.

 

[Vesiger]

If a small number of players are no longer able to win vast and unbalancing profits and a larger group of players are happy and re-energized, I'm afraid that probably amounts to a win/win situation from the Innogames point of view.

 

[Knight of ICE]

From this comment, it's absolutely clear you do not play GbG on a competitive level and you never did.

No it isn't. The only thing that is clear is that you are using a lame argument. Just because someone does not agree with you it does not mean they do not play on a competetive level. I can assure you he does and his comments make much more sense than yours.

Regarding how many people are enjoying this change is meaningless as the only important aspect is if Innos profits from GbG are going to tank or not and those profits are carried by mostly by competitive players who used to stick around the day not by players who used to do 10 figts a day.

That is a very poor assumption. You have no idea how big those profits from GBG are related to other parts of the game and who carries those profits. If you are so sure, you must have the numbers, so why not share the numbers with us. Numbers don't lie.

So yes it all comes down to how angry those active players gonna be due to the fact they lost tons of forge points, definitely, I am not happy for being screwed up in favor of placeholder guilds which used to spend 11 days in HQ.

The final big argument. Players threathening to leave the game. Don't think I have ever seen that before.

 

[Deleted member 127677]

From this comment, it's absolutely clear you do not play GbG on a competitive level and you never did. When 5 sectors open and you have only a few people online cause they lost drive due to this change or it's just an inconvenient time you still need to take them. So yes those people will run out of attrition in 10 minutes. Regarding how many people are enjoying this change is meaningless as the only important aspect is if Innos profits from GbG are going to tank or not and those profits are carried by mostly by competitive players who used to stick around the day not by players who used to do 10 figts a day.
So yes it all comes down to how angry those active players gonna be due to the fact they lost tons of forge points, definitely, I am not happy for being screwed up in favor of placeholder guilds which used to spend 11 days in HQ.

From this comment, it is obvious that your guild was never ‘competitive’. You have had several farmers, they are now fed up and don’t show up. You could maybe dominate because you swapped your way against guilds who were happy to do that, and maybe you had a lot of numbers for specific times, what do I know. What I do know is that I have played Gbg in two competitive guilds since the feature was new, dominated in one, and the other one has built up over the past 2 years to now being fully competitive too. Sorry if it irks you that I love seeing the battle for what it is.

 

[Deleted member 127677]

No it isn't. The only thing that is clear is that you are using a lame argument. Just because someone does not agree with you it does not mean they do not play on a competetive level. I can assure you he does and his comments make much more sense than yours.



That is a very poor assumption. You have no idea how big those profits from GBG are related to other parts of the game and who carries those profits. If you are so sure, you must have the numbers, so why not share the numbers with us. Numbers don't lie.



The final big argument. Players threathening to leave the game. Don't think I have ever seen that before.

Phew, I thought for a second I had posted that in the feedback thread. 100% agree with what you are saying here.

 

[Sacahari3l]

From this comment, it is obvious that your guild was never ‘competitive’. You have had several farmers, they are now fed up and don’t show up. You could maybe dominate because you swapped your way against guilds who were happy to do that, and maybe you had a lot of numbers for specific times, what do I know. What I do know is that I have played Gbg in two competitive guilds since the feature was new, dominated in one, and the other one has built up over the past 2 years to now being fully competitive too. Sorry if it irks you that I love seeing the battle for what it is.

All I can see ever since this update is a dead map, many other guilds on the server have the same issue. Sectors are open for hours and not taken by other guilds, we have guilds that played against us many times before and performed much better but now they do not have the resources to compete on the same level as before. I honestly don't care how guilds are doing their GbG, all I care about is that our guild can get the fights so players have reason to play as it is what keeps the guild alive. If other guilds have a small group of fighters who are doing all the heavy lifting I am fine, as I know how demanding it can be, in my guild vast majority of members actively play GbG on a daily basis.
Sectors used to turn 5 times a day, now we are happy for 2 rounds cause as usual some guilds don't care, some do not want to spend diamonds, and others aren't strong enough to keep going.

 

[Deleted member 127677]

All I can see ever since this update is a dead map, many other guilds on the server have the same issue. Sectors are open for hours and not taken by other guilds, we have guilds that played against us many times before and performed much better but now they do not have the resources to compete on the same level as before. I honestly don't care how guilds are doing their GbG, all I care about is that our guild can get the fights so players have reason to play as it is what keeps the guild alive. If other guilds have a small group of fighters who are doing all the heavy lifting I am fine, as I know how demanding it can be, in my guild vast majority of members actively play GbG on a daily basis.
Sectors used to turn 5 times a day, now we are happy for 2 rounds cause as usual some guilds don't care, some do not want to spend diamonds, and others aren't strong enough to keep going.

Confirmed what I said above. Our map is far from dead. Sectors may not be taken as fast as they were, fine. We’ve all seen dead maps before too, with weaker guilds or guilds with only a few people interested in Gbg. At the moment, we are in competition with 2 other guilds, they both come out about twice a day for a good map sweep, we respond. It takes longer, but that is also enjoyable as it means anyone who comes in can still help, while we nevertheless also need to plan ahead for when sectors do open, what buildings we have, and how many players we can have on. If you never played competitively (as a battle) before, it’s time to learn. If you don’t have the resources to ‘compete on the same level as before’, you’ve clearly again, I’m afraid, been focusing on getting more for less (effort, guild goods, build up, strength) and it’s time to focus on that. What did you do with all those fps if you didn’t raise guild goods buildings?

 

[Emberguard]

. So far, I’m not seeing even remotely the same pushback as there was against GE5, but surprisingly, those who stuck with that feature anlso are quite happy now.

Part of that is going to be because the majority of players will have better developed Red stats than they do Blue stats from the Red boosts being the focus for a greater period of time

I'm curious to see how Blue boosts will be added later on and how that'll effect balance, but the idea doesn't excite me.

 

[Sacahari3l]

Confirmed what I said above. Our map is far from dead. Sectors may not be taken as fast as they were, fine. We’ve all seen dead maps before too, with weaker guilds or guilds with only a few people interested in Gbg. At the moment, we are in competition with 2 other guilds, they both come out about twice a day for a good map sweep, we respond. It takes longer, but that is also enjoyable as it means anyone who comes in can still help, while we nevertheless also need to plan ahead for when sectors do open, what buildings we have, and how many players we can have on. If you never played competitively (as a battle) before, it’s time to learn. If you don’t have the resources to ‘compete on the same level as before’, you’ve clearly again, I’m afraid, been focusing on getting more for less (effort, guild goods, build up, strength) and it’s time to focus on that. What did you do with all those fps if you didn’t raise guild goods buildings?

Did you think I was talking about my guild? We have the numbers, we have the goods... We used to fight 5 times a day and take an entire map. I don't need guidance, I have been playing on the highest level since GbG was released, for 4 years my previous and current guild was defeated only a few times.
In the old format, even weaker and smaller guilds were able to fight with us on the map so there were plenty of fights for everyone, not as many as with our competitors but still more or less enough to satisfy our needs as you mentioned some rounds were dead unfortunately.
But now the map is for us and many other is just dead as guilds are forced to pay more goods and diamonds, and players need much higher stats than ever before which is simply more than they can afford. You said you swap the map twice a day and you facing your competitors which is for me a dead map.
So now GbG is going to be like what? Let's wish we meet at least one of 3 guilds on the server which can keep up with us otherwise it's going to be a slow season with everybody else.
As a bonus, we are now being forced to cut off guilds from sectors for victory points cause our competition is doing that so in case we want to keep our rating intact we must follow. Which is great as it reduces the number of available fights even more.

So yes its an absolutely lovely change, 80% attrition limiter so we can do less than half of the fights we used to, for victory points we need to screw ourselves even more by lowering the number of fights available and on top of that we need to pay more goods and diamonds.

 

[Forwandert]

.
In the old format, even weaker and smaller guilds were able to fight with us on the map so there were plenty of fights for everyone, not as many as with our competitors but still more or less enough to satisfy our needs as you mentioned some rounds were dead unfortunately.

What you mean is 4/5 days into the last round of gbg you stopped taking the front lawns so the smaller/weaker guilds had at least of chance of moving out, to satisfy your needs, bearing in mind upto that point your guild took everything coast to coast, didn't leave a crumb.

 

[Knight of ICE]

As a bonus, we are now being forced to cut off guilds from sectors for victory points cause our competition is doing that so in case we want to keep our rating intact we must follow. Which is great as it reduces the number of available fights even more.

So basically you had to be forced to start playing GBG the way you are supposed to play it. I guess you now understand why the changes needed to be made.

 

[Sacahari3l]

So basically you had to be forced to start playing GBG the way you are supposed to play it. I guess you now understand why the changes needed to be made.

Well, you guys could have told us you plan to rework GbG into GvG 2.0. It would save a lot of people a lot of time and money they put into developing their city to be able to fight large quantities of battles. I think I understand what you trying to accomplish, just not sure it will have the desired effect.