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Analysing the real value of Great Buildings

Martynius

Agree 100%.
If you get the blueprints for either of these two GBs, build them as soon as you can.
There are a few GBs which I would not build, in some situations:
- Tower of Babel (before High Middle Ages - it's good after that)
- Colosseum (in High Middle Ages or later, it's ok before then)
- Deal Castle (if you already have a lot of PvP medals)
- Royal Albert Hall (if you already have a Lighthouse and are short on space)
- Notre Dame (in Colonial age or later, or if you already have another happy GB; it's ok before then)
In those specific circumstances, I would mostly agree - the only one where I wouldn't is the Deal Castle since medals will/should always have a use. I know that once you have the 9,000 medal expansion then there is currently nothing to do with them but I am fully expecting a later update that gives additional uses for medals so stockpiling them now should be a good thing (even if there is no immediate use).

I'd never build Babel or Notre Dame. There are better GBs for their level and any efforts made in upgrading either of these terrible GBs are better placed in Zeus / St. Marks. Only consideration for Notre Dame is if you have a LOT of help levelling your GBs in which case it is about as effective as a polished water pumping station which gives a few supplies. I have a lvl 5 one simply because it fits in my city perfectly (Im on Fel Drangyr)
A Tower of Babel can be considered as a 4x4 goods building that:
  • Can't be plundered;
  • Can give any goods of your age (especially useful when you are just reaching a new age and have few trading partners);
  • Upgrades to the next age when you do;
  • Does not require any gold to produce goods; and
  • Does not require any population (in fact the opposite is true, it gives population to you).

I would definitely not say that that a Tower of Babel is terrible - it is not the best but it is not the worst.
 
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DeletedUser9070

I disagree about the Tower of Babel, sure its one of the lowest priority to get GB but its small enough once leveled up generates nearly as much as a 1d production of any goods building except the trick here is a goods building takes away population and has running costs which increases with ages, sizes too, whereas this just give goods for free every 24h, doesn't take population but actually give you some ..its far from useless, on all my servers I raise this one as fast as possible P/M'ing neighbours still in bronze age quickly get BPs for both zeus and babel in the process, it all adds up as you are waiting for forge points to advance thru the tech tree.
 

Brahminator

There are plenty of GBs which give goods as a bonus. The two best ones (Lighthouse and St. Mark's) both give more. There are only so many goods you need per day. If goods production was unique to this GB then it would have a use.
It produces population. This is a negative - it is hard to hit the population cap unless you are running 10s of military buildings. If you don't need the population then you are wasting space on a building which only produces goods but also requires additional happiness buildings. 1140 population requires a Water Pumping Station (4x5) just to cover the population bonus - thus making the building 6x6 in effect.

If you need goods, get one of the other better GBs. You only need a small amount per day to be covered.
If you need population, build the 8hr houses (and they're better with St. Mark's). At lvl 10 it's the same as 2.4 victorian houses.
If you don't need population, it's a 6x6 building at least as the population still needs happiness.
Space is the most important thing at the end - check how many top final age players run with Tower of Babel, I haven't seen any.

In my opinion, at no level and at no age is it of use and even if I was given a lvl 10 one for free I wouldn't build it.
 

Amy Steele

General
- check how many top final age players run with Tower of Babel, I haven't seen any.
At least one of the top 10 players on Houndsmoor (who is in IndA) has Babel (currently at lvl 9). But then he has 11 GBs so maybe he is going for the full set?

EDIT - I currently have Babel in my inventory and am trying to decide whether it is worth building. I have a lvl 6 Lighthouse already, but am a trader, so that may swing the balance in favour of building. I am currently half way through LMA and have plenty of space, and happiness to spare, but am short on coin having not yet researched apartment houses. Hence my interest in this thread.
 
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Brahminator

My suggestion would be to try to get St. Mark's #1. If you are a trader than you certainly won't need the extra population that Babel gives as you won't need many military buildings. One way they could make Babel better would be to remove the goods production from Lighthouse and St. Marks - those buildings would still be incredible and Babel would have a unique ability until Colonial and Dresden.
 

davidb3

Agree that St Mark's is better, and should be higher priority.
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That said, re the Tower of Babel, have a look at the original post (first page) again. If you're in the Late Middle Ages, it's definitely worth building the Tower for the Goods production. I tried to evaluate the Goods production ability (there is now a section with some comparisons) based on the space used by the GB, compared with the other population and happiness space required for a (pro-rated) a regular Goods production building. There are a lot of assumptions in there, but not stated is that I assume you will still need a LOT of goods for technology research etc, especially if you are only in the Late Middle Ages. Conceivably, if you have enough Goods-producing GBs, you can disband a regular Goods building and use that population elsewhere. I'm also assuming that you may be in a neighbourhood where many people have GBs, so there is much less interest in investing forge points, so Great Buildings level up much slower than a few months ago. In that situation, it becomes important to figure out the break-even point (level required) for when the GB becomes an asset and not a liability. For the Tower of Babel, it works out to about level 3 in the High Middle Ages, or Level 1 in the Late Middle Ages. This is because of the greatly increasing costs of goods production in later ages. The Tower is only marginally good at those levels of course - it would be much better at higher levels.
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The population boost of the Tower is definitely a hindrance and burden in the early Ages, which is why I do NOT recommend building it early on. However, by the Industrial Age or even Colonial Age, you will quickly find that buildings (especially military) use a LOT of population, and the extra population could come in useful.
 

Martynius

- check how many top final age players run with Tower of Babel, I haven't seen any.
Of the top 10 ranked players on Cirgard, #1, #2, #5 and #6 have a tower of babel at levels 10, 9, 8 and 7 respectively. That is 40% of the top players on one server. But the all of those four players have all 5 goods producing GBs (and more) so space is not really an issue.
 

Brahminator

Well let's look at Tower of Babel in Industrial Age and beyond then. Let's even assume you can get a level 10. Is it worth it at that age and beyond?
Population bonus. Gives 1140 fixed. This is the same as 2.4 Victorian Houses and requires 14.4 squares compared to 16 for Babel. Let's be generous and say they're equivalent footprints with road frontage. So at Industrial Age it doesn't save any space for the population it gives and at later ages it will become even less efficient.

Goods bonus. 15 per day. Well how many goods do you need? Industrial Age is 1140 forge points to research and requires 1872 IndA goods (including trading down for the earlier age goods). You need roughly 40 goods a day. Lighthouse and St. Marks together give 44 a day and I'd suggest you would do well to build Dresden and Albert too - bringing it up to 88, more than double what you need.

How much gold do 2.4 victorian houses give? 43k a day if motivated.

You have a choice between a dead end building which gives you fewer goods than other GBs. The goods it does give you are above what you need in the first place. The population is fixed and negligible and bettered by the current age's housing which give resources you do need and will only become better with future ages.
 

Martynius

I went through Industrial Age in about 9 days (using FP packages and about 6 million gold) so that 1872 IndA goods is not 40 per day it was over 200 per day (5 goods producing GBs and plus extra goods buildings). I probably got through more per day than that as I was investigating the new quest arc and trying to negotiate all the sectors (which I managed within about 14 days of IndA being released - overlapping with finishing the tech tree - as a side note to everyone else, don't bother negotiating it's not really worth the rewards). Then I moved on to stockpiling for IndA GBs, for the progressive age and in helping out within the guild. That is where the strength of having multiple goods producing GBs lies (cheap, unpillagable, population-less, auto-upgrading and producing all of the goods) and why Tower of Babel is actually pretty reasonable.

2 Victorian Houses = 948 population + 4840 (+20% if ecstatic) gold per day + 12 squares
1 Textile Mill = -1200 population + 25 goods per day + 12 squares + you need to spend gold to produce goods.

So the net result is 24 squares, -252 population, +25 goods per day and (if you don't have a saint marks) negative gold (since the goods cost more than the VH produces).

Whereas a Tower of Babel can give you +1140 population, only 16 squares and 15 goods (of all types).

(And about all that gold you miss out on if you have a couple of Victorian houses and a high level Saint Marks - I have 30 million gold stockpiled - gold gets to be irrelevant after a while but goods do not)
 

Brahminator

If you had forge point stockpiled then you would also have the previous age's good stockpiled too so only need 410 IndA goods for all the research. You went through it in about 9 days? That's 45 goods a day. Still no need for Babel. This doesn't take into consideration negotiating sectors but imo conquering is better as it's generally faster, cheaper and not too hard with a few %combat GBs.

What is the Babel doing for you for the next month + until progressive era comes out? Goods are meaningless and the population bonus is outclassed by Victorian Houses and will be even more so in the next age. Gold can always be used for forge points.

Helping out your guildmates with goods is a valid point and admirable, but you could instead use the gold on forge points to help level their GBs.

I think assuming people have St. Marks at the end game is a fair assumption. You can get 17.8k gold per Victorian House with motivating and I'm achieving 17k (my St. Mark's is lvl 9) on roughly 95% of my V.Houses. Also I have over 8k population unemployed so the extra population Babel would give would simply require even more happiness buildings (making Babel's footprint bigger) with no positive effect.

If you are a diamond player (so you buy all the blueprints for the GB you want in a new age) then you're probably rushing through the initial research with fp packages to unlock goods buildings to spam or just buying the goods with diamonds outright. GBs cost around 1500 goods (?) and growing so if you're trying to rush for it, 15 a day is not going to make much difference.
If you are a non-diamond player then you're probably going to be restricted in time by blueprint acquisition rather than goods to build it. That's certainly the situation I'm in (8/9 bps for Albert, 5 duplicates, got the goods) and I had only just started Colonial when IndA came out so haven't had any access to the goods required for 1/2 the time.

If Babel were the only GB then of course my opinion would be different. However there are plenty of GBs which give more and which have a secondary effect which is far superior too. This abundance of random goods from other GBs is what makes Babel redundant and except for a few days at the start of a newly released age, you don't need so many goods!
 

DeletedUser15358

This argument also doesn't account for plundered goods. I probably get around 200 per day from that alone ... its obviously possible to even get much more. I find the extra goods I get from my Lighthouse to be basically irrelevant, but at least the Lighthouse has the supply boost over the Babel. I usually have enough goods from an age to finish the entire tech tree, and construct both GB's from that age, by the time I'm 25% of the way through the next age. Like the guy keeps saying ... how many goods do you really need?
 

Brahminator

I'd be surprised if 200 per day was normal for plundering and unfortunately plundering is self defeating if you're going after points. Crippling your neighbours means they don't get to the higher ages as fast, so they don't have valuable units on defense. With the new AI, it may well be that instead of hitting everyone each day, you can only get through a few a day without suffering lots of losses and/or requiring a massive army.

It may well be that Zeus, Aachen and Castel become the most important GBs and Deal/St. Basil become substantially more important too. If Lancers run the length of the field now because of better AI rather than bottleneck at spawn, attackers are going to take a lot of damage if they have sufficient defensive boosts.
 

davidb3

Updated (originally just a placeholder) re my thoughts on the new Progressive era Great Buildings.
Note: Original posting (page 1) has hit the size limit for text - I cannot add anything further unless I prune somewhere else as well. That said, it probably needs a trim ;)
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Martynius has posted some info re the Progressive Era GBs in the Great Buildings Encyclopedia thread, in this post.
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Alcatraz
The Alcatraz Great Building is huge at 7x10 (70 squares), so will be a big pain to fit into your city. It provides happiness and free unattached units each day, of any type that you can already produce, including Rogues. So delete your Spearthrower barracks already! Thematically, it's a very cool idea for PvP players, but the benefits don't really fit in with my idea of what a Prison should be about. Perhaps the happiness is from keeping prisoners away from society; while on the inside they secretly brainwash and reprogram the prisoners into being soldiers? Inconsistent, but oh well.
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It gets up to 8600 Happiness (and 8 units/day) at level 10, or nearly 123 happiness per square. The Happiness provided at level 10 is better than a PE Park (best non-diamond cultural building) or a level 10 Colosseium (both around 95/sq), but not as good as a maxed Hagia Sophia (152/sq), Notre Dame (162/sq) or Frauenkirche (196/sq). In fact for happiness, a level 10 Alcatraz is only just a bit better than a level 6 Frauenkirche (120/sq), for a lot more forge points to get there. That said, anyone who gets an Alcatraz will be in it for the free units for PvP, I'd imagine. In that case, it's about as good as having two extra military buildings (20 sq plus two-lane roads, so about 48sq), plus you save on the three high-rises needed to provide the people for those buildings, or about 36squares. So at level 10, the Alcatraz (70 squares) saves you about 84 squares worth of military buildings and infrastructure, PLUS gives you pretty good happiness as a bonus. And best of all, the military units provided will also improve if you advance to the next age (and build some military buildings of that age), somewhat like a rogue hideout. So it will still be useful if you are still keen on PvP in the next era. I'd think you will want to get it to at least level 6 though (6 units/day and 5500 happiness) if not level 10, if you want to get one.
Martynius' posting is from September 24, so is presumably current information.
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SUMMARY: Get it if you like doing PvP. Avoid if you normally don't have military buildings, or normally use Goods to negotiate for map sectors.
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UPDATE (Nov 2013): Alcatraz looks like it will be even more valuable in Guild Wars, where you need a high number of troops (and have to replace all troops sent off to the war). However, it will mostly be useful if fighting with Progressive Age (or later?) units, as for low age units (e.g. iron age) it seems simpler and more space-efficient to just build the corresponding military buildings if you want to pump out units.
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Chateau Frontenac
The Chateau is much smaller than Alcatraz, at 5x6 or 30 city squares. It provides daily coins and a boost to quest benefits. Thematically, it's a fairly arbitrary choice of building, but I really like the idea of boosting quest benefits. This really reinforces a basic gameplay design mechanic, and will appeal to those gamers who always try to complete quests, especially those hoping for medals (city expansions) and diamonds, both of which are possible (albeit rare) rewards from end of era quests, special event quests, and repeating quests.
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REWRITE on Nov 26, 2013: The big challenge is trying to determine if the Chateau is worthwhile from a strictly economic viewpoint. Is it a good use of 30 squares in your city? The daily coin bonus ranges from 7600 (level 1) to almost 40,000 coins at level 10, but extra income can be pretty meaningless if you already have a St Mark's and a stockpile of 15 million coins. (If you use the money to buy forge points, eventually your marginal cost will be close to your daily income). Likewise, the quest result boost ranges from +45% (level 1) to +135% (at level 10), but what does that really get you? Firstly, most people will only be able to build a Chateau towards the end of the Progressive Era, as it takes a while to collect blueprints and the goods required. The next factor is how many quests are being completed. In general gameplay (before the end of the tech tree), and during special events, I find it hard to complete more than maybe one quest per day on average, and most of those quests provide coins, supplies, or goods - diamond rewards are quite rare. Military units and Special event unique item benefits are not boosted, so the Chateau provides no benefit there. So the quest benefits that matter most (for boosting) will be the repeating quests at the end of the Progressive Era tech tree, at least until a new Age is released. Interestingly, from my own experience, it is definitely possible to complete 3-4 repeating quests per day (with careful city management) without skipping any, and potentially many more than that, if you are ok with skipping the one-day supply production and "spend 66 forge points" quests.
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The most useful comparison is with the Wishing Well (9 squares) in the Progressive Era. Since the Chateau uses 30 squares, it should be at least as good as 3.3 Wishing Wells - and preferably better, if you already have a Lighthouse and/or St Mark's GB, which slightly lower the value of the Well. (For information on the value of the Wishing Well, refer to this forum article.). This is not a perfect comparison, since the chances of getting supplies and coins etc. are different between the Well and the repeating quest random rewards, and the Chateau sometimes gives nothing at all, eg. if you get a Blueprint or forge point packet as one of the random quest rewards. That said, if we look at a Level 10 (+135% boost) Chateau, and the net quest benefit over NOT having a Chateau:
- about 12% of the time, repeating quests give blueprints or fp packets, so ZERO boost (only the daily coins).
- about 34% of repeating PE quests give +7 Goods, vs 33 Goods (if you had 3.3 Wells)
- about 1.5% of quests will be boosted to give +27 diamonds, whereas 3.3 Wells would give 163 diamonds.
- about 7% of quests give +415 Medals, vs 220 Medals from Wells
- about 20% of quests give an average of +31,500 coins, vs 22,500 from Wells
- about 25% of quests give an average of +37,000 supplies, vs 20,000 from Wells.
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So, at first glance, the L10 Chateau gives LESS diamonds, and MUCH less Goods, but MORE Medals, coins and supplies. Given the additional daily 40k coin output of the Chateau, it's more or less a wash. However, we also need to factor in the number of quests completed.
- at Level 10, the Chateau is ok (but not stellar) if you complete ONE random reward quest per day.
- at Level 6, the Chateau is acceptable if you can complete about TWO random rewards quests per day (lower boost and less daily gold).
- at Level 1, the Chateau is acceptable if you can complete about THREE of these quests per day.
If you can complete several quests per day, a Level 10 Chateau is GOLDEN. In my own experience on B, I have now received diamonds four times in the past month (i.e. about +65 after boosting applied) and lots of medals, vs only one +50 diamond collection from my seven Wells on four worlds.
I currently complete about 5 random quests a day (trying not to skip any), with +100% boost. This means an average daily collection of an extra 21,000 coins (plus another 26k daily base for L8 Chateau), 24,800 supplies, 105 medals, 1.5 diamonds, and 8.5 Goods (based on my current statistics of which rewards are received from random reward quests). So, I'm getting more medals than from a L10 Deal Castle, plus more supplies than from a L10 Capitol, plus nearly as many coins (and half as many goods) as a St Mark's would provide, PLUS extra diamonds every month. Sweet! Unfortunately this will only last as long as the random quests at the end of the Progressive Era do... which will likely go away in the near future when the Modern Era arrives.
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Notes:
1. this assumes you are completing all quests, and not focusing on only the "Unbirthday" (Pay 50k coins and 60k supplies) quests by skipping others. The economics of doing 20+ of those quests per day are hard to figure out - you may get an extra 1400 medals or so, but you are still paying a lot for getting a chance at those medals. (This is definitely a lot more medals per day than the Deal Castle can provide though). Why else might you not skip some quests? Anecdotally, people who do seem to have a very low or zero rate of receiving diamonds from those repeating quests (read through the links in the spoiler section below). I don't know if this is just random or if there is really a link between those two factors. The chance of getting diamonds is pretty low in the first place.
2. How DOES a level 10 Chateau affect the economics of doing multiple "Unbirthday Party" quests? Let's say you do 100 of these quests, at an up-front cost of 6 million coins and 5 million supplies. For this, you could expect to get back (with expected variability in results of at least +-25%):
- about 8 blueprints, and 8 medium forge point packets (40 fp total)
- about 170 PE Goods unboosted, or 408 Goods boosted (total value of about 3.2 million coins + supplies to produce)
- 20 diamonds (unboosted), or 47 diamonds (if boosted by L10 Chateau)
- 2400 (unboosted) or 5720 medals (boosted)
- 360,000 coins (unboosted), or 846,000 (boosted) - plus 40,000 coins daily from a L10 chateau
- 520,000 supplies (unboosted), or 1.2 million (boosted)
The supplies and coins collected this way allow you to complete another three "Fnord" (collect coins) and four "Spink" (collect supplies) quests, so the amounts above should be boosted by +7%. Even with the Chateau at L10, you are still going to run out of coins and supplies fairly fast this way, but the extra coins and supplies earned could allow you to do MORE Unbirthday quests, i.e. a total of about 108-9 without boost, or a total of about 124 (including Fnord and Spink) random rewards WITH the Chateau boost. With the Chateau, you have then converted your coins and supplies into about two-thirds of their value in Goods, 10 blueprints (probably useless), 10 fp packets (nice), 47 diamonds, 7000 Medals, and maybe 440,000 leftover supplies. WITHOUT the Chateau, you would get only 38% as many Goods, diamonds, medals (and supplies) - and could expect 9 blueprints and fp packets instead of 10. Hmm. It's a fast way of getting medals - the Deal Castle would take 2.5 months to give you that many medals - but you definitely don't want to burn through Unbirthday quests like this WITHOUT a Chateau.
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This section has some of my older thoughts and links to various statistics on random quest rewards. Ok to skip.
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ScurvyRat has already started a discussion about the value of the Chateau in this thread. Although there is no general conclusion, it seems that there are many more MEDAL rewards than diamond rewards in the end of age looping quests. The Medal rewards can be worthwhile on their own if you are able to do a lot of repeat quests (some people can do 15 per day or more, presumably by skipping any one-day production quests and focusing on the Unbirthday Party quests instead). If you are not able to do a lot of those quests per day, it might be less worthwhile for you though.
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UPDATE Nov 2013: In B, at the end of the tech tree, I am completing an average of about 3-4 repeating (random reward) quests per day. I don't see how it is possible to do more than this (without skipping any quests), as they are things like "Collect 280k supplies/coins", "produce 5 of one type of 1 day supplies (farm/garage/lamp factory)", "spend 66 forge points", and "Pay 50k coins +60k supplies". It takes careful management and a good city layout to try complete more than one such repeating quest per day, but the one-day supply production quests are definitely a speed bump. Anyway, these repeating quests give rewards randomly much like the Wishing Wells, i.e.: most commonly coins, supplies or goods; and rarely forge points, blueprints, Medals, or diamonds. Over the past month, I have received diamonds (20 boosted to 37) and medals (300 boosted to 555) 3 times each now, boosted by about 75-85%. Call it an extra 750 medals, and +48 diamonds in one month (level 5 or so - L10 GB would give at least twice as much). Is this worthwhile? For me, heck yes. Is the GB pulling its weight in my city, in terms of best utilization of the space? Still hard to tell, especially since collecting more coins, supplies and Goods is rather pointless/unnecessary at the moment (at least until the next Era is available). I still think other GBs can do a better job of providing those anyway, at least while the Chateau is below level 10. And when the random quest reward is a blueprint, the Chateau gives nothing extra, beyond the daily cash.
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I also just found two other posts where people discussed their drop rate for stuff from the repeating quests. Here and here. Their stats on finding diamonds were much lower (they don't indicate which server), but it does seem that the Chateau should be at a much higher level than +85% boost before the rewards exceed your costs, except for medals. (Note: Presumably they are only able to do that many repeating quests per day by skipping a lot and mostly doing "unbirthday party" quests. Perhaps the quests have some hidden requirement to complete the dame Greva one-day supply quests before you qualify for diamonds as one of the "random" rewards? ).
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SUMMARY: Get it if you like doing quests (the more the better), have the space, are at or near the end of the Progressive Era (or later), and can get it up to a high enough level. If you often skip quests, skip this GB as well. (Personally, I am a quester and will TRY get one of these on each world.)
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NOTE: Both the Chateau and Alcatraz are relatively easy to get up levels at the moment, because they give a lot of medals and forge points, and are still relatively rare. There are also many players at the end of the Progressive era tech tree, with nothing else to spend their forge points (and cash) on except GBs, so they will either push their own GBs or support GBs that give a lot of medals. This situation will change as soon as a new Era is released, at least for a month or two (by which time there will be two new GBs to chase after).
 
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DeletedUser3157

I re-read ur guide since your many updates. It is sure interesting read for anyone, can give people some ideas on different perspectives. For example I liked u using footprint not direct size to demonstrate how nice goods bonuses are, that's neat. But also so much stuff I would disagree with it. I quess it's only natural though for different people to have different opionions. So to anyone reading this guide, take it is one guys interesting and very detailed opinion, but it doesn't mean it's 100% truth or u wouldn't be entitled to ur own.

PS: My biggest problem is actually the short sum-ups you have at start of each GB. It's just not so black and white and I'd disagree with many of them.
 

DeletedUser653

I'd be surprised if 200 per day was normal for plundering and unfortunately plundering is self defeating if you're going after points. Crippling your neighbours means they don't get to the higher ages as fast, so they don't have valuable units on defense. With the new AI, it may well be that instead of hitting everyone each day, you can only get through a few a day without suffering lots of losses and/or requiring a massive army.

It may well be that Zeus, Aachen and Castel become the most important GBs and Deal/St. Basil become substantially more important too. If Lancers run the length of the field now because of better AI rather than bottleneck at spawn, attackers are going to take a lot of damage if they have sufficient defensive boosts.
I have to take note, if you are plundering 79 players a day you motor up the tech tree and will never have shortages of goods. thus you will have high AGE level troops compared to the players in your hood. You also forget you may have 200% defense when I attack but your troops have 0% attack bonus, so it takes a few more attacks but you will always lose. So Defensive GB's do not deter aggressive players.

So as Brahminator said "It may well be that Zeus, Aachen and Castel become the most important GBs...." - They will in guild wars!!


PS - I forget to say great initial post and while I do not agree with all details I still think its really good reading for any player before they start building GB's

I built ST Marks and Alexandria as essential coins and supplies bonus and the attacking GB's Zeus, Aachen, Castel, then the defensive one Basil, (did not build Deal as got 30 watchtowers) and Acatrez. Pretty aggressive set of GB's!
 
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davidb3

Plundering 79 neighbours a day seems unlikely, given how frequently neighbourhoods are merged, how often cities are idle (from players being on holiday or losing interest/time), and how difficult it is to find the exact window between when production completes and the owner collects. That said, I'm definitely also appreciating the attack combat bonus more (for conquering map sectors) than originally; I'm still dubious about the productivity benefits but it definitely improves gameplay (and scores) to have a high attack bonus from GBs like the Statue, Cathedral and Castel. The attack bonus is definitely way better to have than defensive - even with a 90% defense boost from my St Basil's, my defense troops are stomped on by most attackers.
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Re favourite GBs, yes, that is an important issue because you eventually run out of space! I agree that St Mark's and Alexandria are essential (or Royal Albert Hall instead of Alexandria), and then Zeus, Aachen and Castel are nice for the attack bonus. It is also helpful to have happiness GBs because the happiness requirements are ferocious at higher levels - Hagia Sophia and Frauenkirche are my favourites. Notre Dame is quite good as a happiness GB but I don't need the supplies with the Lighthouse; the Colosseum is terrible (in later ages) unless you can get it to level 10. I'm really dubious these days about using precious city space for St Basils, Deal Castle, or Tower of Babel though, if you are in the Progressive Era. I haven't yet collected enough blueprints of the capitol or Progressive Era GBs to have to decide if I need to build them or not. I rather like the new PE GBs though, at least thematically.
 

Odovakar

Thank you so much David for all your advices. I found them very useful when I was a beginner some months ago and needed some help to understand this game.
 

leeroyj

I still don't understand how people can say the Notre Dame is anything but worthless. Its happiness boost is pathetic and the supplies are worthless for most players. It really doesn't make sense to compare happiness with unpolished buildings when comparing efficiency. One polish/motivate is hard to quantify, but in the PE one polish doesn't mean much at all since everything generally gets P/M'd. Thus, you should compare it to a polished circus, which gives 5600 happiness, with same footprint the Notre Dame has, which only gives 3900 maxed out. The fact that you or other GB donators are wasting that many FPs to get to level 10 is also terrible since you could be leveling up other GBs that are much better.
 
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DeletedUser7719

I see what your saying, but note that this thread wasn't really updated when the PE came out...
 

leeroyj

I see what your saying, but note that this thread wasn't really updated when the PE came out...
are you replying to me? I used a CA building, and that is the one he used in his discussion of the ND. A lvl 1 ND isn't even as good as a church polished (both from HMA) and you can't assume that it will reach level 10 before you reach PE (I find this kind of unlikely tbh)

If you are only specifically referring to this: "One polish/motivate is hard to quantify, but in the PE one polish doesn't mean much at all since everything generally gets P/M'd." The only point of that comment was to say that 1-2 polishes a day (only thing you are sacrificing by using the polished numbers of a cultural building for a comparison) isn't worth a lot to begin with, and it ends up being worth nothing by the time you get to PE. Even if you subtract the motivated bonus for 2 buildings and add that to the ND's value, it ends up being a waste of space and FPs

I don't mean to say that this guide is not useful btw. I think it has a lot of good work and is a great starting point for beginners.
 
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