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Rogues have become useless

Rosletyne

Warrant Officer
I must say I really like the change. It makes fighting more fair.

Does it now? Strong players deserve their strength, because they have spent the effort or the money to become strong. Nothing unfair about it. If strong players were nerfed in the name of fairness, why would anyone be motivated to become stronger?

Just funny to see that the ones complaining that the rogues have become useless, who just gain 1st place in fighting by conquering the same GvG sector over and over again instead of doing real fights!

Your generalisation is as stupid as it is insulting. Lots of players are upset about the abysmal quality of recent updates regardless of their playstyle. Fighting is boring enough without being forced to manually repeat the same steps over and over.
 
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DeletedUser16126

Your generalisation is as stupid as it is insulting. Lots of players are upset about the abysmal quality of recent updates regardless of their playstyle. Fighting is boring enough without being forced to manually repeat the same steps over and over.
I just say that playing GvG in autobattle when you conquer always the same sector isn't a fair way of playing against the other players. (I know fairness is not at all a priority of INNO, so I should complain about the lack of it)
And I see the players gaining points in this way complaining now. I can only say... I like to see them suffer. However I'm convinced that with a little more imagination the developers could easily handle it in a better way.

IMO autobattling is more boring than manual play... I can't understand that you say that selecting troops, and push autobattle is less boring than really fighting in a manual way and executing a strategy to kill an enemy.
I agree it is more timeconsuming, but not more boring...

I agree the IA sucks... Real IA should have different parameters to tune, both for attack and defense. And in GvG it shall at random sweep through the difference defense settings to make the defense behavior less predictable; or even better... It shall adapt itself depending on the enemy army it faces.
One of the parameters should be kill enemy rogues first or kill enemy rogues last, another parameter should be: "rush forward" or "stay out of range if you can't hit another unit".

Mainly the complaint now is that the behavior of a rogue lines up with the behavior of the other units, having the "stay out of range if you can't hit another unit". The champion is a suicider, there is nothing that describes that the rogue shall behave as a suicider too. So IMO there is nothing to complain about this update...
 
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Rosletyne

Warrant Officer
I don't like it either how some people use GvG only to get easy points, but I can't agree with your generalisation. Do you think that everyone complaining about the AI breakdown was doing that? How would you even know?

I also can't understand your distinction between boring and time consuming. Certainly if you make an already tedious task even slower, it becomes more boring.

Finally, I can't understand why you complain about the AI being dumb, but you're okay with it being even dumber now. This change does not affect just rogues and attacking armies you know. For other unit types the circumstances where they run away may not occur as often, but I have seen Contemporary champions flee from me on a particularly rough map.

By the way, I have heard complaints about the AI only too often, and I don't think the complainers ever quite understand the issue. For game balance reasons, the AI cannot be any smarter or less predictable. Fighting is an integral part of the game, and pretty much the only activity in the game. In order to be able to fight, the attacker absolutely must have an advantage over the defender, otherwise there would be no fighting at all and the game would be dead. For this reason I'm firmly against any major improvements to the AI. Parameters such as you describe would only result in lots of invincible defense armies, and no one would have anything to do except farm - and abuse GvG exactly like you don't like them doing.
 

DeletedUser16126

In order to be able to fight, the attacker absolutely must have an advantage over the defender, otherwise there would be no fighting at all and the game would be dead. For this reason I'm firmly against any major improvements to the AI. Parameters such as you describe would only result in lots of invincible defense armies, and no one would have anything to do except farm - and abuse GvG exactly like you don't like them doing.
I don't agree at all... I fight my hood daily and indeed, sometimes the defense is so hard that I have to retreat.
And indeed some fights I can only win when playing manually and accept some damage.

I don't agree that GvG will be more death than it is already... Now GvG is monoplized by guilds that just can autoplay with their rogues. Other guilds just don't have any chance. I have 40 attached rogues in FD, so I'm playing that way myself, but that doesn't mean that I find it the right way the game should be played.

I'm wondering if the way GvG is played now is the way was intended. I think the answer is "NO". GvG would be much more attractive if it became a lot slower than this flash-bashing like it is now. I agree a lot need to change to make GvG attractive, and you will get major pushback from the top guilds.
 
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Rosletyne

Warrant Officer
I don't agree at all... I fight my hood daily and indeed, sometimes the defense is so hard that I have to retreat. And indeed some fights I can only win when playing manually and accept some damage.

I don't get you at all. Isn't the fact that you are able to fight and win battles, while at the same time it is possible to have a defense strong enough to force you to retreat, proof that the balance is just fine as it is? If the AI was to be improved, it would tip the balance clearly in favor of the defender, making fighting much less appealing.
 

DeletedUser16126

I don't get you at all. Isn't the fact that you are able to fight and win battles, while at the same time it is possible to have a defense strong enough to force you to retreat, proof that the balance is just fine as it is? If the AI was to be improved, it would tip the balance clearly in favor of the defender, making fighting much less appealing.
That just brings me back to to the initial statement I made. That many people (not all) that are shouting loud now in this thread, are people that just play GvG in a way that it was not intented, and are now claiming to be big fighters because their battle counter is high, but who are always just fighting easy armies that they've put theirselves in GvG at a boost of 0%.
There's just a big inballance between those pseudo-fighters (calling theirselves big fighters) and people playing the game normally.
If they suffer because they cannot play autobattle anymore, then I'm just enjoying that situation.
And i think this is also a a valid opinion, apart from all other opinions here.
I'm not giving a statement without any reasoning behind it.
 

DeletedUser99588

If they suffer because they cannot play autobattle anymore, then I'm just enjoying that situation.
And i think this is also a a valid opinion, apart from all other opinions here.
I'm not giving a statement without any reasoning behind it.

I understand now. Your happy to see the many suffer to watch the few that abuse struggle. No point continuing your discussion Rosletyne you will never convince those with this mentality to look at the bigger picture. To many just looking at what is best for their own little world and not the overall balance of the game. The developers haven't set a great example on this front in recent times so I guess it is to be expected.


Jouchka, although I agree those that release and retake their own sectors for PvP points are not really participating in GvG or playing it how I believe it was intended I would never advocate or support breaking something else in the game to deter it. That is not in the games best interest and seems to be very short term thinking.
 
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DeletedUser105638

Okay, I couldn't be bothered replying with a bunch of quotes, but some of the things getting said here are ridiculous and waaay off the point.

Firstly, this is a game, so how on earth someone can call someone else a coward is beyond me. I love to fight in this game, yet if someone twice the size of me were to threaten me with violence in RL, I'd swiftly remove myself from the situation. Also, points in this game mean nothing, so why people care who gets more I will never know. Granted, if there are people releasing and retaking their sectors to get 1st in towers, that is an unfair exploit, but all games have this kinda thing, either way, it's got nothing to do with the discussion.

It's obvious that some people are just raging that they are weaker (in game) than others and are glad to see those who kick ass knocked down a bit, being so sad that something like this actually makes them feel better about themselves. I see this kinda thing a lot in this game, and I feel sorry for people who rate themselves based upon this kinda thing. people should have the sense to rate themselves on how well they help their guild, however highly ranked they or their guild is. You're basically saying that farmers are bad players as they have less points and very few wins, when in fact, they areneeded more than fighters imo, for a guild to do well. But anyways, once again, not the point here.

I appreciate that a great many of you likely play in much older worlds than I do, so this development may not affect some of you in the same way it does us. You may remember though, in younger worlds, that most guilds usually only have 2-3 players who can auto in GvG, and THEY ARE NEEDED. How on earth are you supposed to take 80 wins against a 75% support boost before the defenders get 10???? It is the ability to auto that makes this fair, and it was the rogues that made this a viable option. As it is, you need about 20 fighters, online at the same time, to take such a sector, which is nonsense as this game has people from every time zone playing it.

If GvG were to get slower, it would be rubbish in this format, it was nicely balanced. Now, it would only be fair if the defending guild had to get 30 - 40 wins (or something like that) to break the siege, which is ridiculous. All in all, the game was running smoothly, with fair fights between guilds on the GvG map. Now, between no NPC damage and an inability to auto, if you own a heavily defended sector, it's safe as a little piggy in a brick house. I'm not whining about this because it has made things harder for me, I run the No1 guild in L World and all this works highly in our favour as we own most of the good land on most of the maps. But this is a war game and people need less reasons to be afraid to attack, not more. As people here have said, AI working in favour of not attacking would inevitably turn the game into FarmVille (which I'm sure there's a great number of closet FarmVille cases playing this game) which to me would totally destroy it.

Aaaaaanywho, could those of you just looking for a place to vent your frustration at not being as powerful (game wise) as other players, please start a new thread for whining on. This is meant for people to discuss the recent development in the behaviour of the AI.

Thanks, Gimpus :-)
 
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DeletedUser101925

Seems to me that rogues and other units behave normally again.

At one hand I hope you are right and the issue is indeed fixed.
On the other hand i'm appalled that these devs keep silently changing the game.

No announcement, no changelogs.. nothing.

I'm wondering why they don't do these things on the beta server..
 

DeletedUser105638

I was logged out of all worlds a few hours ago, and I was suspicious that it was some change.

I'll auto and have a wee look.

God I hope you're right :-)
 

DeletedUser16026

As per Tracey's note in the update discussion thread this behavior should now be fixed.
It will be changed tomorrow so that it was working as before.

We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused and the lack of information for the issue.
 

DeletedUser5180

on another thread i spoke about small unwanted / unnessecary changes causing problems.

adding some stupid childlike graphics to the battlefield results in a total change to AI behaviour.

whether its fixed or not it proves the point that needless messing with things does not work

please stop it in future
 

DeletedUser7990

I've been fighting against units which hide in trees, really annoying, they just hide there. You click to keep your units where they are, away from the trees, and those units just stay there. You could spend all day waiting for them to move. You get close, then they kill your units, and you lose.

Now way around it really. One map had trees all over the place, I had to negotiate as they had 5 hiding units.
 

DeletedUser96901

I've been fighting against units which hide in trees, really annoying, they just hide there. You click to keep your units where they are, away from the trees, and those units just stay there. You could spend all day waiting for them to move. You get close, then they kill your units, and you lose.
that is how a good defense AI works :o

the attacker wants to win so he must do something
the defender only needs not to lose

and if the defender forces the attacker to retreat because he hides very good the defender did his job perfectly

but you want a stupid AI
you stay where you are and the hidden units run to your units and get killed :eek:
 
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DeletedUser100493

Rouges are for attack not defense, drummer boy is the defense boost. rouges have always been like this in defense in PvP in GvG they should be more attackiing but the AI in this game is rather poor.
 

DeletedUser6060

yep, rogue are no longer like before... it is safe to say that now, rogues have gone rogue....
 

Vesiger

Monarch
More cowardly AI: one heavy unit remaining against one badly damaged trebuchet. The trebuchet was doing about one point of damage per turn. The heavy unit could have charged towards it and reached it in two turns, taking a small amount of damage before wiping it out in one hit and winning the battle outright. Instead, it repeatedly ran away to take up position on open ground while the trebuchet hit it again and again and again until it eventually died, thus losing the battle for its army :-P
 

DeletedUser106685

If you defend your city with a mix of drone swarms and rail guns, the drone swarms tend to stay back to protect the rail guns.
But when the attacker has 8 railguns shooting at you from the other side... what's the point?
 
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