Support Team Feedback! part 2

[DeletedUser]

On another note your style of moderating in these threads is very confrontational which seems to provoke members to respond in a similar manner. Those experienced with dealing with the public will have received training to avoid escalating discussions along this path. Maybe this is an area that could be improved.

i have noticed this as well, hostility begets hostilities.

Until they violate rules and policies, not because they are inconvenient or uncomfortable.

rules and policies that were put in place to being made to feel uncomfortable perhaps, lol. just saying.

 

[DeletedUser99588]

We will be posting an updated list containing all things currently being addressed in relation to improvements. We hope to have this available by the end of the day.

This seems like a good idea.

Maybe it would also be beneficial not use terminology like level 3 support members. I don't think that actually means much to the average reader of the forums. Levels can be perceived in either direction. Some work on the basis that level one is the top level and subsequent levels are lower and other systems would have level 1 as the lowest level and subsequent levels meaning a higher position.

I would like to see those banned in the previous thread reinstated. Not because I'm friends with them because I'm not and in fact had a number of disagreements during their time as moderators and they were as guilty as most of censoring and supporting the current format of forum management. Whether they were fighting for change in the background I don't know but it sure didn't show on the front line.

They should be reinstated because they brought to the attention of the community that there may well have been an abuse of power. This has still remained unanswered and I'm guessing will remain that way for the foreseeable future. Given that the CM has decided to ignore this and I guess under the current management format that is her prerogative the players in question should be reinstated unless their claims can be refuted with proof. That is how it works yes, guilty until you can prove your innocence.

 

[DeletedUser16026]

Thank you all for the feedback and suggestions. Just to touch on some points, as they may not be answered directly through a list of suggestions.

1. Several times my posts were deleted without any message from the moderators, comment, or even infraction - they just disappeared without a trace. I think such practices are unacceptable.

I propose that, when a moderator deletes a post, the text of the post should be replaced with "The message was deleted by FM-Name due to (the reason)". The original text of the post should be sent to the author by PM so he/she will have a chance to file a complaint.

You should not have posts vanish without any reason, we can try to ensure that in the future. You can always file a complaint though, even if a post has been removed. We can see what has or has not been removed. For example if you've had a post removed in thread "X" and believe there wasn't a good enough reason for it, you can let us know and we can still review the post(s) in question.

-which brings me to last point, which I believe should be mentioned. Don't ignore uncomfortable questions. Many players asked on the previous thread for the ban reasons of said 2 ex-mods, and when told "privacy rules" blah blah blah in response, pointed out as the rules shouldn't apply in this case as the ban must have been based on the posts in the thread which everyone could read.

I believe I've touched on the topic multiple times but, if something was removed due to violation of rules you would not see it. That's not avoiding the question, it's providing the best answer we can without violating policies.

 

[DeletedUser96995]

I believe at one point one of the admin team confirmed ALL deleted posts have been reinstated hence back for everyone to see

 

[DeletedUser16026]

I believe at one point one of the admin team confirmed ALL deleted posts have been reinstated hence back for everyone to see

This was in reference to posts which were removed as off topic, in response to off topic posts, and similar. We cannot reinstate any violations of the rules.

 

[DeletedUser96995]

Hmmmmmmm

 

[DeletedUser108406]

I can see no reason to start a new thread on this other than to get rid of evidence, quite frankly. If you had started a new thread with the suggestions made and most importantly, points that YOU feel have already been addressed from the previous already included, then maybe I'd see the point here. Sloppy.

You can be sure that if they do not appear tonight as Zarok Dai has alluded to, that they will be brought up here again. Think first, act second and you could save yourself unnecessary work.

This was in reference to posts which were removed as off topic, in response to off topic posts, and similar. We cannot reinstate any violations of the rules.

And what about the point about both individuals being contacted through the support system to explain the reasons for their bans? Can you confirm that has been taken care of? I assume that would something you could 'improve' on straight away.

 

[DeletedUser]

You should not have posts vanish without any reason, we can try to ensure that in the future. You can always file a complaint though, even if a post has been removed. We can see what has or has not been removed. For example if you've had a post removed in thread "X" and believe there wasn't a good enough reason for it, you can let us know and we can still review the post(s) in question.

Apparently you don't understand.
I'm not saying that my posts were deleted without a reason. Maybe there was a reason, maybe not - I don't know, because you didn't explain it to me, you just deleted the post. This is so simple I hardly believe I have to explain it second time - if you punish someone (and removing posts is a form of punishment), you have to explain your reasons. I should not file complaints just to learn why my posts disappeared - you have to explain it in the first place, and, if I will not agree with your judgement, only then I will file a complaint.

The current practice may seem better to you, because most players choose not to file complaints in such situations, so you can delete any post you don't like and forget about it. But these players, although remaining silent, get an impression of corruption and injustice. It's your choice - whether you choose practice convenient for you or the one that creates better playing environment.

 

[DeletedUser16026]

I understood perfectly, I was saying you shouldn't have posts removed without receiving those reasons yourself.

Regarding the complaint bit, I was implying that even if the post is removed you can still send in a complaint about the situation and how it was handled - you do not need to provide a copy of the post itself as we already have that.

 

[DeletedUser99692]

slightly off topic, but maybe still relevant....how about a listing of all players that are "employed" by inno to help run these forums and list them according to rank??? maybe should be part of the sticky so that some of the newer members know whos who

Go to the top of this page click Quick Links then View Site Leaders
Simples )

 

[DeletedUser96995]

Darkstar, I had a brief pleasure to meet you in the mod room but from the responses here I can see that you are a sound guy and I like you.
The point we all are trying to raise is that in the past posts used to disappear. Recently the posts disappeared linked to the players who were consequently banned. We would like to see that this doesn't happen again. No deleting posts without a good reason.... And not using disappeared posts against the banned players, the 2 ex mods in this example. Reinstate them as a sign of good faith, gosh....if they raise hell (as I would do cos by now I would be so angry), ban them again.
But chances are they will come back and behave and provide some good input. You cannot let people disappear without a good reason. And let's face it, we kept reading the thread and saw all the posts, even the ones which might not have been reinstated. And we didn't see anything bannable.

You want a mod feedback....there's one. Openness, clarity, honesty... No hiding behind removed posts.....people do see things like this and it only raises more unhappiness.

Apologies if my post doesn't make much sense....I'm on android and can only see a fraction of the type box lol. Plus cooking and feeding the "zoo" lol.

 

[DeletedUser]

I understood perfectly, I was saying you shouldn't have posts removed without receiving those reasons yourself.

I haven't received the reasons. Am I understanding correctly that this is against your policies and I can file complaint because of it? Not because I don't agree with (unknown) reasons for deletion, but because FM in charge didn't explain them? I presume that the very fact of reported delete-and-not-explain would automatically result in certain administrative actions against the FM?

Regarding the complaint bit, I was implying that even if the post is removed you can still send in a complaint about the situation and how it was handled - you do not need to provide a copy of the post itself as we already have that.

Well, you have a copy of my post, but I - don't In some cases it makes impossible to file a well-substantiated complaint. For example, if a player is accused of profanity or mod bashing, it's very important to see exact wording of the post, which the player may not remember. Basically, by deleting a post and not sending it to the player you deny access to the evidence that can be used to appeal your actions

 

[DeletedUser99588]

Some mods do send you a copy of the post they have removed. Doesn't happen all of the time though and I think Ggryvi has a good point that this should be standard practice if editing or removing a post.

Very good suggestion for improvement.

 

[DeletedUser]

Upd:

I understood perfectly, I was saying you shouldn't have posts removed without receiving those reasons yourself.

I re-read the Forum Rules and found a part that directly contradicts your statement (and supports my initial one):

Guidelines for the forum

- If you notice that your post or topic was deleted, it has been removed for a good reason. Do not rewrite it. If need be, PM the moderator in question about why it was removed.

So, what is the real policy: delete-and-explain (your statement) or delete-and-don't-explain (Forum Rules)? In the latter case, will it be changed to a normal one?

P.S. I haven't noticed it before, but the Forum Rules are a textbook example of dictatorship management. My favorite part is:

Please note that we reserve the right to ban or infract players even if they haven't violated the stated forum rules.

Probably this "rule" was used in the case of 2 ex-mods. Well, it removes the question of why they were banned. Ban according to the rules because they haven't violated any rules

 

[DeletedUser99692]

I have followed this thread with interest one thing is fairly obvious there is an underlying animosity at the lack of clarity not in the rules we all know those but in that shifting grey area called CS policy. So lets have some clarity what is the policy "Huston we have a problem whack it with a stick quick" or "A lot of movement in that area what can we do to resolve it"

It seems to me that a purely reactive policy is doomed to failure if this thread is an attempt at being proactive then folks lets stop the confrontational and work on the cooperative please

 

[DeletedUser16026]

The first post of this thread has been edited with a table that includes all suggestions. If you feel we have missed something, please do let us know.

The point we all are trying to raise is that in the past posts used to disappear. Recently the posts disappeared linked to the players who were consequently banned. We would like to see that this doesn't happen again. No deleting posts without a good reason.... And not using disappeared posts against the banned players

While I understand this, any violations have to be removed or otherwise we're endorsing that behavior. While this is a forum and we're aiming for openness, it is still Inno's forum.

Reinstate them as a sign of good faith, gosh....if they raise hell (as I would do cos by now I would be so angry), ban them again.

The players can appeal using the support system. We too can be held accountable by those above us and would need an appeal from the parties in question. We will not be commenting on any cases in this thread any further, the goal is to concentrate on feedback and not on discussing cases of moderation.

I haven't received the reasons. Am I understanding correctly that this is against your policies and I can file complaint because of it? Not because I don't agree with (unknown) reasons for deletion, but because FM in charge didn't explain them? I presume that the very fact of reported delete-and-not-explain would automatically result in certain administrative actions against the FM?

Well, you have a copy of my post, but I - don't In some cases it makes impossible to file a well-substantiated complaint. For example, if a player is accused of profanity or mod bashing, it's very important to see exact wording of the post, which the player may not remember. Basically, by deleting a post and not sending it to the player you deny access to the evidence that can be used to appeal your actions

It has not been a must in the past, it would depend on the situation, but as I said we can ensure you are informed going forward. You should receive a copy, also, if a post is removed instead of edited (in which case you'll be notified what bit was edited). So if it happens in the future please feel free to contact us.

P.S. I haven't noticed it before, but the Forum Rules are a textbook example of dictatorship management.

One can try to stay on the line of the rules yet repeatedly show behavior that is damaging to the forum, not contributing in any way, and with clear intentions to wreak havoc.

We can look into updating the rules for better clarification on certain points. But I do have a request, if someone wishes to discuss any of the rules can we please do that elsewhere on the forum and not in this particular thread as it leads additional posts in a different direction than its intended purpose. Thank you.

 

[DeletedUser96995]

Is there another thread for suggestions about the rules?

 

[DeletedUser16026]

Is there another thread for suggestions about the rules?

You're free to start one or send suggestions to one of us. We've had threads discussion certain game rules, but no recent one about the forum rules.

 

[DeletedUser96995]

From what I can see, there's a close link between inno rules and mod rules. Lots of your responses were "sorry, can't do, inno rules". So we can't change one without the other . otherwise you will always move us to the inno feedback where we will get lost forever never to come back here

 

[DeletedUser16026]

From what I can see, there's a close link between inno rules and mod rules. Lots of your responses were "sorry, can't do, inno rules". So we can't change one without the other . otherwise you will always move us to the inno feedback where we will get lost forever never to come back here

There is, that is correct. What I meant was we will review the rules and if anything that is from our side can be improved, it will be. For example what Ggryvi quoted is part of a procedure which can come across confusing especially if it becomes outdated - we can update that and clarify it. If you or someone else feels something can be clarified/improved, you're free to let us know. I cannot guarantee that a change will be made, but we will look and see if it is possible.

ETA: You can let us know through a PM or create a different thread. If it's here it won't be discussed, though it will still be noted.