New Content Guild Battlegrounds Update 2023 Feedback Thread

[Deleted member 127677]

And would probably create a bigger problem with players complaining therir fragments are gone. If you have a problem with the fragments you can delete them yourself.

Or you could just have told them that the problem has been addressed already a few days ago and there is an exchange script coming that will sort it automatically.

 

[harold mouse]

It does even out over a longer than expected amount of time:
I tracked my 67%BG with my Katebo nut frag production.

67% BG to nut frag doublings: 287 attempts, 192 doublings - running at 66.8989547%
To bring the rate into the 67% mark: 0 consecutive attempts and 0 doublings would be required

Some probability experts stated that 189 attempts would be needed to determine accuracy based on 2/3 odds, but took about 100 more to actually get the data to even out!

So it puts to rest the random generator being at fault.

When I said "does not even out over time" I meant the numbers of fragments, not the percentage. The percentage does head towards 67%. How long it takes to get there is again random. Might be less than the "expected" number, 189, or might be much more as it was in the trial you did.

 

[harold mouse]

I’ve never seen this explained this clearly. A lot of people are or get annoyed about the perceived discrepancy between figures stated, and figures as they manifest themselves through fights per attrition gain, percentages of different productions, GE relics and so forth. If it’s not based on probability, with a chance to even out over time, it should be expressed differently. Not as 80% chance, but as ‘most likely x’.

It is based on probability, it is just that probability does not work the way we think. When they started using RNGs to deal cards in bridge tournaments they were shocked at the number of hands dealt with extremely long suits, and thought there was something wrong with the algorithm. Analysis by probability experts showed that actually for the first time they were getting random results --- shuffling the cards is just not good enough. Of course the "unusual" hands are attractive in bridge. So it is with e.g. the amount of attrition loss you get with a given number of fights. You will get runs of good luck, and runs of bad luck.

I had a friend at college who used to decide things with friends based on the toss of a coin. One time (it was said) he won 32 successive coin tosses! Not sure how unlikely that is, but while probability says it is unlikely in any given instance, it also says sometime it going to happen.

 

[TheKingOfKool]

And would probably create a bigger problem with players complaining therir fragments are gone. If you have a problem with the fragments you can delete them yourself.

Not a problem for me - as far as I am concerned they can sit there forever!

 

[TheKingOfKool]

I was responding to someone else's comment

It is not that the random number generator is broken, but simply that random number generators to not do what people (particularly game designers) imagine they do. It is thought that they are "fair" because they give everyone an equal chance. They do give everyone an equal chance, but they do not give an equal result. Random means essentially "unpredictable". They are capricious and will give many unfair result. This does not even out in time, but rather the spread of unfair results increases (it reduces in proportion to the total number of results, but the actual spread becomes increasing unfair as time goes). Really game developers should stop using RNGs if they want to produce a fair game.

But now I will comment on yours: You are drawing conclusions without any facts.

 

[harold mouse]

I was responding to someone else's comment


But now I will comment on yours: You are drawing conclusions without any facts.

It was I who made the original comment you responded to, although you responded to his post. As it happens, I am a mathematician with a first class degree from Cambridge and a very good knowledge of probability theory. You did one trial, but that does not tell you anything about the results of other trials. You would have to repeat your trial loads of times before you would see that the average of all the trials heading for 189.

An example of the actual number not evening out. Suppose the expected number of tokens to be collected in an event is 100. Half way through the event one player has 25, another has 75. It is not predicted that the difference of 50 will be evened out. It is just as likely that it will increase further.

 

[Knight of ICE]

Can we stick to feedback here? I know we drift of more than once, but a discussion on mathemathics and who is right or wrong based on the degree or experience you have is totally off topic. You have said what you wanted to say. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Deleted member 127677]

End of season 2 with Championship format. The new rank 4 guild in my world is the *holiday* guild of one of the all time best Gbg guilds on our server, and ranked higher than the mother guild. Because the holiday guild won a platinum and now a lower diamond league season on the trot, and the mother guild ended up losing this season against another 1000 league point guild. The top 7-14 guilds consist of other similar guilds that have won lower diamond or platinum leagues this season. 2 of them have under 10 members. 4 others are under 30 members. They sit higher in ranking than half a dozen strong fighting guilds with 50-60 members who have had the misfortune of facing even stronger fighting guilds for 2 seasons, in the *one and only reflective diamond league which is 1000 lps*, and all will drop down unless by some fluke, they end up facing each other in a 1000 league point season. How is this in any way reflective of ‘what they can do’ in Gbg?

I want to rant some more. But I’ll just bite my tongue and say, this was an obvious danger of this new format even before the first season ended. The potential for weak guilds to yoyo for fragments was a blatant risk after the first season. Ranking based on wins and victory points is all fine, but there needs to be 1) a reduction of value placed on victories in lower leagues, and that includes lower diamond, and/or an increase on the value of any victory points gained in a higher league. Add to that a potential need to incentivise competition further, by also giving a better base prize for ending up on the top spots in your season, as getting half a million guild power for guilds already in the 90 levels, and 100 frags of a kit that became outdated 18 months ago, isn’t really going to cut it.

 

[Tuzlak]

Hello Inno,
So if anybody is reading this anyway, think not, but still a comment/feedback after 2 seasons of the new GbG.
Will keep it very short because its a simple problem.
As all games, you have more and less daily active players and players that come once in 2 3 days online, a month, collect city, chill for 5 10 mins and he is offline again. But what is the point of my saying? The point is, you made us active players to be less active. How? Well easy. Imagine the situation, you coming online, you see 3 opened sectors with 320 points to be taken and all 3 of them are 20% of getting attrition ready. First problem is that the statistic on that is nowhere close to the shown % because after 10 fights I already have 6-8 attrition gained. You hit those sectors to 300 points, attrition about 80-90, you done for your day. Now you and your guild depend on that player that comes once in 2 days online, does 10 to 20 fights and goes away, and you as an active player cant to anything. You have no reason to come back online again, because you are now in the stage where you are losing more units than you can produce, or spending more goods, same. Simple as that.
So please, or fix the percentage counting on hitting the attrition and give us active players possibilty to play the game, to have a reason to come back online after my morning coffee, or give us back no attrition sectors...
Problem is very simple, we want to be able to play the game, and for some reason you dont want us to.
Have a nice day.

 

[Shadovaria]

The new Gbg format is already having the easily predictable negative consequences that Inno where warned about in the beta forum, many guilds are now talking about kicking low level players as they can't fight much and any players who don't participate in Gbg, at least with the previous setup guilds didn't require having most or all their players joining in to do well. Now there is no incentive to take on new players or players that don't want to fight as they are just a drag on the guild. While I get why Inno wanted to remove the 100% att reduction they have gone too far. This new gbg has made it far more difficult for new players to either progress or to find good guilds that can help them grow. If Inno actually care about their players then att reduction needs to be increased to 90-95% this will still limit fights while allowing the weaker players to actually be helpful to their guilds

 

[Forwandert]

Now there is no incentive to take on new players .

This new gbg has made it far more difficult for new players to either progress or to find good guilds that can help them grow

Gbg focused guilds have been doing for the last couple of years now at least.

A single new player could disrupt gbg long before the new changes. It's nothing new and nothing to do with the update. Rather bizarre statement that this is a new thing. Does it help new players when guilds have requirements of arcs etc on a player that's new to the game? Hardly any guilds focused on gbg have given any new players a chance for a long time now.

It's actually better for new players now, they can join the smaller guilds that can't afford all the build costs and they can grow at their own pace rather than forced into playing and building a certain way or facing booting from a guild. Before more of the smaller guilds tried to keep up with build costs, now they can drop requirements a little.

What is a weaker player? someone that hasn't had time to progress through the game and use all expansions and had time yet to build up attack boosts etc? Rather like a new player? What baseline are you using for classification of weak player?

 

[Shadovaria]

Gbg focused guilds have been doing for the last couple of years now at least.

A single new player could disrupt gbg long before the new changes. It's nothing new and nothing to do with the update. Rather bizarre statement that this is a new thing. Does it help new players when guilds have requirements of arcs etc on a player that's new to the game? Hardly any guilds focused on gbg have given any new players a chance for a long time now.

It's actually better for new players now, they can join the smaller guilds that can't afford all the build costs and they can grow at their own pace rather than forced into playing and building a certain way or facing booting from a guild. Before more guilds tried to keep up with build costs.

The guild I am in has always been Gbg focused and we have also always taken on low era players with very low points and been perfectly happy if players did not want to join in with Gbg we where still happy to help them grow now they are a drag on many guilds and are in many cases getting kicked because they cannot help as much as they could before. There was nothing bizarre about my comments they are 100% accurate
Sorry while you are allowed your opinion you are totally wrong, nothing about the new gbg is beneficial to new players, they get a lot less fights and less rewards than they could before.
I posted as feedback for the designers there was no need for you to reply if you like the changes make your own post and kindly do not reply to my Feedback that required no conversation with any other player

 

[Vesiger]

It's not the guilds fault they are not getting to attrition ! They have work, families, and RL. This format makes it to hard for players to achieve !!!

I don't understand - surely they are 'getting to attrition' earlier, presumably enabling them to spend more time with their work, families and real life?

 

[Vesiger]

End of season 2 with Championship format. The new rank 4 guild in my world is the *holiday* guild of one of the all time best Gbg guilds on our server, and ranked higher than the mother guild. Because the holiday guild won a platinum and now a lower diamond league season on the trot, and the mother guild ended up losing this season against another 1000 league point guild. The top 7-14 guilds consist of other similar guilds that have won lower diamond or platinum leagues this season. 2 of them have under 10 members. 4 others are under 30 members. They sit higher in ranking than half a dozen strong fighting guilds with 50-60 members who have had the misfortune of facing even stronger fighting guilds for 2 seasons, in the *one and only reflective diamond league which is 1000 lps*, and all will drop down unless by some fluke, they end up facing each other in a 1000 league point season. How is this in any way reflective of ‘what they can do’ in Gbg?

I want to rant some more. But I’ll just bite my tongue and say, this was an obvious danger of this new format even before the first season ended. The potential for weak guilds to yoyo for fragments was a blatant risk after the first season. Ranking based on wins and victory points is all fine, but there needs to be 1) a reduction of value placed on victories in lower leagues, and that includes lower diamond, and/or an increase on the value of any victory points gained in a higher league. Add to that a potential need to incentivise competition further, by also giving a better base prize for ending up on the top spots in your season, as getting half a million guild power for guilds already in the 90 levels, and 100 frags of a kit that became outdated 18 months ago, isn’t really going to cut it.

We are the 'lower diamond' guild in the current season: we won our platinum season and got promoted back into diamond league with a group of other sub-1000 point guilds (so far as I could see).

One of those guilds, not the highest scoring among them, was obviously very much the strongest and was able to dominate over half the map. After a few days they started setting up 'swaps' and basically controlling which of the other guilds scored how much by which were allowed into the centre sectors and for how long. (The guild that was initially lying fourth by some way overtook the third-place guild, which was situated next to us, because they were doing swaps on centre sectors whereas our neighbours didn't get a look in).
At this point interest in the season started to tank, and the amount of fighting going on globally decreased; nobody bothered attacking sectors that weren't 20% attrition any more. The leading guild started complaining that it wasn't worth swapping because nobody else was filling their sectors fast enough. Nothing happened for long periods of time.
At the end of the season we were still lying second, but this did not in any way reflect the amount of effort we had put in (fairly little). It was simply because we had been allowed to occupy centre sectors for long periods of time while our overlords waited in the hopes that we would fill the neighbouring sectors and they could do their swaps. We could have done more, but it was no fun and nobody could be bothered

 

[VESS]

I have been out of the game for about 3 months and only been back about 10 days so forgive me if my assumptions are incorrect.
I suppose what I am writing could be put in the format/forward ideas section but it states i have not enough privilege, whatever that means.
so it is going here.
So if i have got it correct then only in Diamond league and coming in 1st position do the members of the guild get the 3500 frags for the new building.
So if said guild has 80 members and there is 30 fighters doing all the work and earning their reward and the other 50 are doing nothing or not many fights then they also get the 3500 frags for basically doing nothing or not much, while those in 2nd place get nothing nor do the platinum and gold leagues get nothing.
yea ok, you see where i am going with this, a classic example of giving rewards to players that have not earned it while others elsewhere are doing the fights\activity and get nothing.
If you look at the leaderboard now and remember it from 6 months ago you will see it exactly the same, as in those in diamond league will always be in diamond league and everyone else that is not in diamond league will never be in diamond league, you are only making strong guilds stronger and not giving any other guilds the initiative or will to take them on, while also you are giving rewards to players that have not earned said reward, why should players who do nothing or do not bother with GBG get a reward that is a battle boost building to help be more stronger for fighting in GBG when they do not fight, are not interested and more than likely will never build the building, yet you have players who are fighting and active in other leagues and are getting nothing.
My proposal is to extend the rewards to both platinum and gold leagues for 1st position but at a lower amount of frags, but also and here is the kicker to have a minimum of 1000 fights per season to receive the frags.
So if you are in diamond league and your guild comes 1st and you have a 1000 fights or more you will get 3500 frags, if you have 999 fights or less you get nothing, nadda, zero, nowt, nulla, zilch.
If you are in platinum and your guild comes 1st and you have a 1000 fights or more you will get 2000 frags, if you have 999 fights or less you get nothing.
If you are in gold league and your guild comes 1st and you have a 1000 fights or more you will get a 1000 frags, if you have 999 fights or less you get nothing.
You could even implement a certain amount of frags to 2nd place in these 3 leagues.

 

[Deleted member 127677]

We are the 'lower diamond' guild in the current season: we won our platinum season and got promoted back into diamond league with a group of other sub-1000 point guilds (so far as I could see).

One of those guilds, not the highest scoring among them, was obviously very much the strongest and was able to dominate over half the map. After a few days they started setting up 'swaps' and basically controlling which of the other guilds scored how much by which were allowed into the centre sectors and for how long. (The guild that was initially lying fourth by some way overtook the third-place guild, which was situated next to us, because they were doing swaps on centre sectors whereas our neighbours didn't get a look in).
At this point interest in the season started to tank, and the amount of fighting going on globally decreased; nobody bothered attacking sectors that weren't 20% attrition any more. The leading guild started complaining that it wasn't worth swapping because nobody else was filling their sectors fast enough. Nothing happened for long periods of time.
At the end of the season we were still lying second, but this did not in any way reflect the amount of effort we had put in (fairly little). It was simply because we had been allowed to occupy centre sectors for long periods of time while our overlords waited in the hopes that we would fill the neighbouring sectors and they could do their swaps. We could have done more, but it was no fun and nobody could be bothered

It’s interesting to see the other side for me too. Our season was ok, two guilds on the map mainly, lots to do but not as hard fighting as the first one. We don’t swap, so took their sectors and support like they took ours. My comment isn’t really intended to disparage the effort (or indeed comment on the ease of winning or scoring well in lower leagues), so forgive me if it comes across as such. The only thing I’m trying to say, and say again, is that they can’t base the ranking on this system as it is not reflective of what guilds truly are doing. Ranking will most likely correct itself before the end, but it nevertheless looks odd when 14 guys on break from their main guild, some don’t even log on, can overtake the main guild in rankings because they had a significantly easier time. Same for the other high ranked guilds that ended up in that spot from lower leagues.

 

[Timer X7]

End of season 2 with Championship format. The new rank 4 guild in my world is the *holiday* guild of one of the all time best Gbg guilds on our server, and ranked higher than the mother guild. Because the holiday guild won a platinum and now a lower diamond league season on the trot, and the mother guild ended up losing this season against another 1000 league point guild. The top 7-14 guilds consist of other similar guilds that have won lower diamond or platinum leagues this season. 2 of them have under 10 members. 4 others are under 30 members. They sit higher in ranking than half a dozen strong fighting guilds with 50-60 members who have had the misfortune of facing even stronger fighting guilds for 2 seasons, in the *one and only reflective diamond league which is 1000 lps*, and all will drop down unless by some fluke, they end up facing each other in a 1000 league point season. How is this in any way reflective of ‘what they can do’ in Gbg?

I want to rant some more. But I’ll just bite my tongue and say, this was an obvious danger of this new format even before the first season ended. The potential for weak guilds to yoyo for fragments was a blatant risk after the first season. Ranking based on wins and victory points is all fine, but there needs to be 1) a reduction of value placed on victories in lower leagues, and that includes lower diamond, and/or an increase on the value of any victory points gained in a higher league. Add to that a potential need to incentivise competition further, by also giving a better base prize for ending up on the top spots in your season, as getting half a million guild power for guilds already in the 90 levels, and 100 frags of a kit that became outdated 18 months ago, isn’t really going to cut it.

I'm glad that more people are noticing this.
Personally I'm not even bothered by the rewards that they'll get by bouncing up and down in diamond.. the guilds that do that don't even play gbg, what are they going to do with more guild goods and a few extra fps? Previously they could get into easy farm sessions, but now the other guilds that naturally end up in low diamond can't even dream swapping the whole map once per day.

The bigger issue is the ranking. The hidden MMR is generally accurate.. stronger guilds face each other all the time and you get 1-2 medium sized guilds in the mix and then 3 or 4 other victims. There's some protection in place to prevent all of the strong guilds from getting into the same session, but generally we get matched by performance... and ranked by made up stats. A guild can conquer the map once with 10k fights and get more points than a guild with 200k fights that didn't even win the session.

I have 2 solutions:
1. LP can still be the primary stat. Reveal the real matchmaking rating. Then we'll know what's really going on. Use number of fights as another secondary stat. Fighting in the different rings can be worth more points.. ring 5 - 1 fight = 1 point, ring 4 1 fight = 1.2 points and so on, but it's probably not necessary.
2. Use the funny new stats and start matching guilds up by number of wins and when that's equal match them by victory points. Eventually it will work because the stronger guilds will be 1 or 2 wins ahead of the guilds that bounce between low and high diamond and the 1000LP lifers that can't beat the bigger guilds. You just need some wildcard element because after a while the stats will be very real.

Either way you can't have 20-person guilds with 2 milllion points and 2 wins and a bunch of big and medium fighting guilds facing stiff competition with nothing to show for it. The old MMR is just incompatible with the new ranking system.

 

[Vesiger]

My comment isn’t really intended to disparage the effort (or indeed comment on the ease of winning or scoring well in lower leagues), so forgive me if it comes across as such.

The big difference I saw was that we (and by that I mean I) were logging on, looking at the board and going 'nothing at 20%, may as well wait until there is, goodbye" whereas last season we (and by that I mean I) were bravely throwing ourselves into 80% and 100% fights for the guild until our attention was all gone, then someone else would pick up the baton. Personal gain by racking up as many fights as possible? Sudden lack of motivation.
And this wasn't in any sense an attempt to game the ranking system, or even motivated at all by the ranking system (we have found our level and oscillate pretty consistently around the top 30-40, which reflects our fighting strength as a guild - our ranking at any one moment is governed by whether we happen to be in diamond or platinum this season rather than by relative victory points in any one season, and whether we get demoted or not depends largely on the opposition, since there are 20-30 guilds that are guaranteed to wipe the floor with us if we are set against them). We don't play GBG for guild ranking, and I doubt many of our members even know what rank we are at any given moment. We don't care. We play it for entertainment. And for me, it's the farming (and bring screamed at by 'allies' that we are not dedicated enough or fast enough to be worthy of being farmed by them) that kills the entertainment.

 

[Malynn]

Regarding Kyrael’s recent announcement concerning addressing GbG feedback. I like the new changes and think they are a big improvement on the previous system, but what wasn’t covered in the “Addressing feedback” announcement was:
Are any of our suggestions being considered? Such as the suggestion by several players, that players should be able to donate diamonds to the guild treasury, so that the cost of “instant building” could be shared amongst guild members, instead of just individual players.

 

[KDS-33]

My proposal is to extend the rewards to both platinum and gold leagues for 1st position but at a lower amount of frags, but also and here is the kicker to have a minimum of 1000 fights per season to receive the frags.
So if you are in diamond league and your guild comes 1st and you have a 1000 fights or more you will get 3500 frags, if you have 999 fights or less you get nothing, nadda, zero, nowt, nulla, zilch.
If you are in platinum and your guild comes 1st and you have a 1000 fights or more you will get 2000 frags, if you have 999 fights or less you get nothing.
If you are in gold league and your guild comes 1st and you have a 1000 fights or more you will get a 1000 frags, if you have 999 fights or less you get nothing.
You could even implement a certain amount of frags to 2nd place in these 3 leagues.

Anything in that direction, excellent. Overall a lot fairer than what transpires now.