"Fair Trade" completely unfair. True fair trade calculator

[Goblin The Great King]

Aside from which it's not possible to ever factor in every equation of how a player acquired a good. While the "base" rate might seem fair in your calculations it ignores GBs and event buildings. It also ignores the fact that it all evens out in the end due to the different deposit sizes throughout the game. It ignores that some goods have considerably less desirability and are over flooded in the market meaning no one will even be able to sell those goods.

Paper for example is so commonplace I can't trade to get rid of it, only to obtain it. What would be a fair price for that then?

Ok some goods buildings are smaller, that just means they're harder to get rid of stock if too many players age camp there not to mention certain goods are used more (and for longer) on the tech tree then others which would change the demand and value for those goods

Talc Powder for example is a remarkably small goods building but is only used for a single age in the tech tree and therefore very undesirable on the market

Completely valid points. I couldn't use any information that is a "black box". Adding expert coefficients to the system would clearly destroy its value as a fair calculator.

As for GB and special buildings - they still produce more tile required and less tile required goods. So having a GB it would be wise to sell expensive goods and leave the cheap to yourself. And for the person who mostly produces with productions buildings - it will be a tile based true fair.

Depends on the age

30 goods in a normal goods buildings versus 10 goods from an event building. But that's before refined goods come into play

Which is why I'm keeping certain buildings stored until I reach a age that requires refined goods as the advanced ages play a completely different game from the early ages in regards to goods

Your statement assumes the goods are in isolation from everything else. It's a moot point when that zen zone doesn't need population to keep it running

If we relied purely on Goods buildings and didn't have any GBs or event buildings contributing to the production of goods we'd need a ton of space for the population plus all the prerequisite's for that to work in addition to all our military buildings, our attack/defence boosts so we can complete GE and buildings for happiness

Correct. The model is designed on the base that only productions building produce goods. Otherwise I see no base to connect all products. Still my answer to your previous question applies.

The zen zone might "need" 5x5 to max out, but it's space efficient as it provides needs for everything not just goods. Meaning you'd need to compare to if you only had 5x5 repeats of that set throughout your city compared to manually doing everything separate to find out what the true cost is

The biggest benefit for it is I don't have to worry about the cost of supplies or coins for producing those goods either.

Whereas in Houndsmoor I can't produce ANYTHING from a goods building because when upgrading my housing I ran out of supplies (I started with 700k), but my event buildings and GBs can continue to produce in this down time. So what's fair for the trades there?

Correct regarding Zen Zone. I just didn't want to write a lot to Agen327 because he is not constructive and can't or don't want to understand any of my answers to him. It's possible to calculate the exact number of tiles in each era we save by not havein supp and pop building. It's all done in the document for all buildings. So as for the Zen Zone - my answer would be the same as for the first question.

One last thing, which wiki did you consult? You said it didn't tell you about the happiness aspect but yesterday I looked and noticed there were goods buildings that take away happiness as I was looking up stuff for how I'd use the dynamic tower

I've used this one

http://forgeofempires.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Goods_Buildings

CE, TE, FE has information about happines modificators and they are counted in the document as a bonus or minus to tiles to compensate the aided cultural building of that age. As for the next eras wiki states that there are no happines modificators and that's used in the calculation. I think information about happiness in those eras are from Agent327 - so I don't trust it too much based on all his answers.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

If we really want a "true fair" system how about this?

> No player to player trade
> Trade between player to Inno
> System keeps track of where each of your goods came from
> Goods traded in order in receiving them (in regards to each individual stockpile. EG if you collected from a GB, a goods building and then a quest receiving all stone the system would use the GB stone first when trading stone specifically)
> Goods ratio calcutated based on the amount of resource put into obtaining said goods in exchange for the standard effort you'd otherwise need for what you're trading

Inno would need to make a crazy complicated calculation system that'd be flexible enough to integrate new event buildings without having to add to the coding for the trading aspects​

Nah. The game needs market. It's more interresting for all players. If we have such a system from the Inno it will totally destroy the game for lots of people who like optimizing and trading with profit.
My calculation is not for everyone. Only for inguild and friends trades. I'm ok with having a profit for trading on market.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

Which is why guilds (more than just 'the top few big guilds', going by what I've glimpsed in guild descriptions) end up using the 2:1 system: not only does it set a fixed exchange rate so that players know they can trade back any goods for what they paid to take them, it's also easier to oversee.
Hard enough trying to spot when somebody has set up a 2:1 trade between goods several ages apart, when you've got dozens of potential combinations - when they're all set according to customized values, it becomes almost impossible.

That's true Moderation becomes close to impossible. Still it's not to hard to understand if there is a rude mistake. But making them 20-30% incorrect will be hard to spot. Still - this is for guilds and friends where some trust is already present.

 

[Emberguard]

@Goblin The Great King Use this wiki for cross reference then: https://en.wiki.forgeofempires.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

It's the official Wiki, the one you're using is a fan based wiki. Both have wonderful information the other lacks so if you can't find something on one look on the other

Quick Link to the goods building page

 

[Agent327]

I think information about happiness in those eras are from Agent327 - so I don't trust it too much based on all his answers.

But I am suppopsed to trust you and your calculator?

When I use your simple calculator I get for 100 Bionics Data 100 Plastic.
If I use the detailed calculator I get for 100 Bionics Date 101 Plastic.

Bionics Research lab gives 300 happiness
Plastic Plant gives -100 happiness.

Plastic should be worth more than Bionics Data, not less.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

@Goblin The Great King Use this wiki for cross reference then: https://en.wiki.forgeofempires.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

It's the official Wiki, the one you're using is a fan based wiki. Both have wonderful information the other lacks so if you can't find something on one look on the other

Quick Link to the goods building page

Wow. Thanks! I'll use it for sure.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

But I am suppopsed to trust you and your calculator?

When I use your simple calculator I get for 100 Bionics Data 100 Plastic.
If I use the detailed calculator I get for 100 Bionics Date 101 Plastic.

Bionics Research lab gives 300 happiness
Plastic Plant gives -100 happiness.

Plastic should be worth more than Bionics Data, not less.

It's up to you to decide

The file is opened. You can check exactly why is it this way. Probably because of the different amout of tiles required for the whole chain.

 

[Agent327]

It's up to you to decide

Same way you decide to ignore the thruth I am telling you?

You still haven't told me what the real true fair trade tile value is for goods I get without using any buildings. On that same note, a person that buys expansions with diamonds has much more tiles than someone that doesn't. How do you take that into account?

 

[Goblin The Great King]

Same way you decide to ignore the thruth I am telling you?

You still haven't told me what the real true fair trade tile value is for goods I get without using any buildings. On that same note, a person that buys expansions with diamonds has much more tiles than someone that doesn't. How do you take that into account?

Rate is the same no matter where did you take them (goods buildings, GBs, plundering etc.). Expansions do not matter. If you have bigger city you should have more goods. The same rate in all your cases.

 

[Agent327]

Your rate is based on tiles. You call it a "true fair tile rate". The moment I get goods without using a building and therefore using no tiles your system is inadequate, because I can do it without buildings. You have come up with a system that might be better, but calling it "true fair" is delusional.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

Your rate is based on tiles. You call it a "true fair tile rate". The moment I get goods without using a building and therefore using no tiles your system is inadequate, because I can do it without buildings. You have come up with a system that might be better, but calling it "true fair" is delusional.

I've changed the name to "Tile Based True Fair". You are right. I can't change the name of the topic though.

 

[Dead-Eye]

This thread has good entertainment value, fo sho. Carry on.

 

[Agent327]

Still not agree to it being true fair. It's fair, nothing more. True fair does not exist. It is fair, but that is anything that people agree on.

 

[Migraine of Ord]

This thread has good entertainment value, fo sho. Carry on.

Yes, but it needs popcorn.

 

[Snarko]

You are right about the market. Fair - is when it's regulated by market. What I found in this game is that most top guilds PROHIBIT using rates different than 1:1 or 2:1 because that rates are widely considered as "fair". If there were no such often used rule I don't think I would do this research. So in case guild has a "fair only" rule I strongly suggest have both fair and "tile based true fair" as a possible rates to trade. This will greately elliminate shortage of big building's goods on the market.

Your system does not help with the shortage. Suppose I produce granite and want 100 of each type of EMA goods. How many goods buildings do I need if the trades are 1:1? How many goods buildings do I need in your system?
Since granite is worth more in your system I'll need fewer granite masons to get the same amount of goods, thus reducing the amount of granite available on the market.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

Your system does not help with the shortage. Suppose I produce granite and want 100 of each type of EMA goods. How many goods buildings do I need if the trades are 1:1? How many goods buildings do I need in your system?
Since granite is worth more in your system I'll need fewer granite masons to get the same amount of goods, thus reducing the amount of granite available on the market.

You are correct if you are the only granite manufacturer on the market. But at the same time if granite costs more lots of other people will start producing it and make supply bigger. That's a standard supply/demand economy rule which will balance the market.

 

[Deleted User - 90180]

It's mostly applicable for the guilds who strictly use "fair" 1:1 and 1:2, so they can also use "tile based true fair". In those guilds you can't trade with neighbours using different rates, because it violates guild's policies.

Well, then it sucks to be in that guild because to trade with neighbors I need to pay extra 1fp per trade so I want better than "fair" ratio to compensate that.

 

[Deleted User - 90180]

You said it didn't tell you about the happiness aspect but yesterday I looked and noticed there were goods buildings that take away happiness

True, LNG Plant take away 350 happiness and Algae farm gives 700
https://en.wiki.forgeofempires.com/index.php?title=Goods_Buildings
That lead to our previous discussion that this system would work only up to ME/PME.

 

[Goblin The Great King]

True, LNG Plant take away 350 happiness and Algae farm gives 700
https://en.wiki.forgeofempires.com/index.php?title=Goods_Buildings
That lead to our previous discussion that this system would work only up to ME/PME.

It is all sorted out in the document. Right here. So it works in all eras

 

[Deleted User - 90180]

It is all sorted out in the document. Right here. So it works in all eras
View attachment 15201

That does not tell much to me.
How you convert missing/extra happiness to goods/tile ratio? I mean for LNG you need culture building/decoration that gives 350 happiness and for Algae the other way round? Should it be 1.5 and -3 respectively or do you use current age happiness buildings?
Why in AFE and OFE you have modificators when building do not have happiness effect? (figured out)
What does "Unrefined population" mean and why its the same for all buildings? (figured out)

p.s. Still this ratios does not take into account GB and special buildings and their advantages. And lets be honest 95% of players have those in their cities. I mean this calculator, in spite of its complexity, still does not represent the real situation on servers and thus can't be used reliably.