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Biased AI ??

=Susharik=

Private
I bumped my simulator to 10M simulations and got 5.616% chance of having an empty slot with 43 BPs. Odd that, at 10M it should converge. Had to think about it a bit.
Unfortunately, I cannot review your simulator and what exactly does it do, but I can tell you for sure (and you can verify it with any statistics professor): if you roll dice with 9 sides (representing our BPs) for 10M times you will get approximately 10M/9 occurrences for each side. The chance of getting only 43 times for one side (one BP) is almost 0.
 

RegV

Corporal
From information posted by other players.
Let's take this guy for example (image below).
That's what started this thread, I looked at it. Came to the conclusion that it is a cherry picked data set to prove a point. RR plays in 4 worlds. Which worlds are these from? On en6 RR has a lvl 19 arc, meaning he has already burned 10 full sets of prints. If you add 10 to each bucket, I think you have a reasonably random distribution from 11 to 22 prints per slot.
4 worlds, RR certainly has BPs for more than 6 GBs at this point. Why only those 6?
 
So what if it really is biased? Obviously, nothing really proves that it is. But what if?...
Did Inno claim somewhere that it isn't biased?
Is there anything wrong with creating an algorithm that makes it harder for players to get the last blueprint they need?
Is there anything wrong with creating an algorithm that slows down the appearance of incidents when players need them for a quest?
Is there anything wrong with making the game difficult and tempt players to pay for the game?
 

RegV

Corporal
Did Inno claim somewhere that it isn't biased?
Good point. Nope. I've never seen anything from INNO that says you always have a 1 in 9 chance of getting the last BP.

Is there anything wrong with creating an algorithm that makes it harder for players to get the last blueprint they need?
Nope. I don't think they would need to do that. Getting the last BP is always going to be harder than the others. You have a 100% chance of getting a BP you need when you get the first one. You only have an 11% chance of getting the last one. INNO wins just by simple math, but if they bias it even more in their favor, you are right, they never said it was fair.

Is there anything wrong with creating an algorithm that slows down the appearance of incidents when players need them for a quest?
Wiki says you can expect 10 to 15 incidents per day, and they stick around for 24 hrs. They don't define when the day begins and ends or when they might appear. If the number of incidents falls below the minimum of 10, then there would be something wrong with that. (If nothing else, the Wiki needs to be updated).

Is there anything wrong with making the game difficult and tempt players to pay for the game?
Only if you mislead people. When INNO does show the probability of something, it should be right. When they say the Racoon has a 13% chance at the DS, I expect that to be right. But no one player can collect a big enough sample size to know if the 13% is right. So we always get a bunch of people complaining the odds are wrong. And others saying they beat the odds. As long as there are people posting on both sides, I figure INNO must be doing it about right without cheating.
 

OrionMnt

Corporal
Here we go again with chasing ghosts.
That sample of 1 person...
I can trade some of my BPs to prove the opposite point. You can't prove you didn't use the same technique.
Let's bring now negotiations when you lose 92% of the the coin flips to win it or when you get 1 out of 30 tries in DS during event with 10% chance.
Nobody says anything when they get super lucky, but when you get some below average luck it is all conspiracy
 

Paladiac the Pure

Major-General
Why only those 6?
Another side of looking at this too - is who knows how truthful this so-called data was. It is 6 examples each showing a slot with a single BP. Was it the last BP as the poster is trying to suggest, or were there more BP's added afterwards to the other slots, so as to skew the results.
An image like that has zero value, other than to show that out of 9 slots, 1 slot has only 1 BP. |
 

PeePee Pleb

Lieutenant
it is not a 6% probability, but 0.6%. For those that know statistics, if RNG is working correctly then with a lot of occurrences, you should get to exactly 1/9 of all occurrences (+- the variance). Of course, you can say that a set of 43 events is not enough for this rule to work, and I will agree. But when you multiply by many players that experience the same issue I would say that Inno RNG IS BIASED.
It isn't biased, it's just fact that RNG doesn't work like this:
1st roll: 1/9 chance for getting that one BP you need
2nd roll: 2/9 chance
3rd roll: 3/9 chance
4th roll: 4/9 chance
5th roll: 5/9 chance
6th roll: 6/9 chance
7th roll: 7/9 chance
8th roll: 8/9 chance
9th role: 9/9 chance (100% chance)

but actually like this:

1st roll: 1/9 chance
2nd roll: 1/9 chance
3rd roll: 1/9 chance
....
9th roll: 1/9 chance

So basically, the fact that you keep missing that one BP is making your brain think RNG is biased, while situation is actually different.
 

OrionMnt

Corporal
It isn't biased, it's just fact that RNG doesn't work like this:
1st roll: 1/9 chance for getting that one BP you need
2nd roll: 2/9 chance
3rd roll: 3/9 chance
4th roll: 4/9 chance
5th roll: 5/9 chance
6th roll: 6/9 chance
7th roll: 7/9 chance
8th roll: 8/9 chance
9th role: 9/9 chance (100% chance)

but actually like this:

1st roll: 1/9 chance
2nd roll: 1/9 chance
3rd roll: 1/9 chance
....
9th roll: 1/9 chance

So basically, the fact that you keep missing that one BP is making your brain think RNG is biased, while situation is actually different.
No, his math was right
 

=Susharik=

Private
Well, in order to understand this issue well you really need to know statistics well. I cannot teach people that, but those who know will understand. Also, math is not a religion, so there is no "believe in" it or not. Math is correct or not. If someone can point out where my calculations are wrong I will be happy to review them.
I opened a ticket with Inno support and they confirmed that it is 1/9 chance to get a blueprint. But the examples I find online do not support this claim. However, I can agree that the screenshots I am finding are not real, but fabricated. The only example I am sure of is mine, and it does not support Inno's claims.
 

RegV

Corporal
If someone can point out where my calculations are wrong I will be happy to review them.
I thought I already did:
But your math is flawed. You are computing the odds of a *specific* slot not having a single BP. But you aren't here to complain that the last slot is still empty. It could be the first slot or middle slot or any of the others, you would still claim bias,
Compute the probability that any 1 of 9 slots is empty, and I'll bet you come up with something around 5.6%

The only example I am sure of is mine, and it does not support Inno's claims.
So you have a sample size of 1. By your own math, there is a 0.6% chance that you would get that outcome if Inno's claim is correct. So let's just round that off and say it's a thing that will happen to 1 in every 200 players. So what exactly are you complaining to Inno about? That something that happens to only 1 in 200 players happened to you? What exactly are you expecting them to do about that?

But as I said, your math is wrong. Yeah, the probability of not getting a BP in the last slot after 43 tries is 0.6%. What is the probability of not getting a BP in the last slot or the first lot? Better than 0.6%, right? How about the probability of not getting a BP in the first slot or last slot or middle slot? Even higher, right? `Probability of not getting a BP in any 1 of the 9 slots? Even higher still, right? Just shy of 6%. So you are complaining to Inno that something that happens to only 6 in 100 players happened to you. What exactly are you expecting them to do about that?
 
math is not a religion, so there is no "believe in" it or not
math_is_religion.png
 

=Susharik=

Private
I did not calculate the chance for any slot to be empty. The calculation was for the odds of the specific situations posted by one player. And it showed that those situations are far beyond statistically normal deviation.
And yes, those situations can be fabricated. And yes, data from 1-2 players is not enough. If more players share their screenshots we can know better.
Till then you can believe whatever you want. You can even believe that casinos and their customers have the same chances of winning. You can even believe that 2+2=5. Personally, I believe that Inno is a commercial organization with a goal to make profits. The main thing they are selling is diamonds. So I believe their RNG is biased, exactly like casinos do.
 

PeePee Pleb

Lieutenant
Well, in order to understand this issue well you really need to know statistics well. I cannot teach people that, but those who know will understand. Also, math is not a religion, so there is no "believe in" it or not. Math is correct or not. If someone can point out where my calculations are wrong I will be happy to review them.
I opened a ticket with Inno support and they confirmed that it is 1/9 chance to get a blueprint. But the examples I find online do not support this claim. However, I can agree that the screenshots I am finding are not real, but fabricated. The only example I am sure of is mine, and it does not support Inno's claims.
Inno has no reason to lie to you about the chances of obtaining the specific BP. Some players just don't have enough luck, somebody get just normal BP distribution. As I already said, I have been extremely licky many times that I got just the BP I needed from trading 2:1 a few times in a row. So yes, chance is 1/9.
 
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