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Changelog 0.22 Discussion

DeletedUser

...

So, back to the more interesting questions.
DOes it fall within the norm not to get a blue print in the space of 36 hrs and twice polishing 75 members of the guild in addition to twice plundering 68 neighbors. That's 286 actions that yielded no BP.

Tell me i'm not alone, please.
:)

You are not the alone mate :) After 4 days of polishing the whole pack of 79 guildmates, and polishing or plundering all my neighbours (47 cities) - never skipping anyone - I am still playing with the one and only BP I found at one of the doctor's footsteps the very first day. Reading the posts here I don't think it really matters much if it's one or five though, polishing or plundering does not seem like a way to get to a GB anyway.
 

DeletedUser6968

Let's keep things in focus:rolleyes:

In history those great buildings that are proposed to us took enormous resources and a huge quantity of manpower to build. They where really the summum of the art and science at the time they where built. One of them was never finished.

So in the same spirit it's perfectly logical that gathering all the BP and then the resources to build those will take time. These buildings did not get constructed over night but they took a long time to build.

So let's do what those people did at that time : Patience and hard work.

P.S. For those who can buy them I see no problem. They help us by spending money to help the game to progress.

Have a nice day
 

DeletedUser276

P.S. For those who can buy them I see no problem. They help us by spending money to help the game to progress.

Have a nice day

exactly... they buy the blue prints to get the buildings others give FP to help the building level and at each level the top 3 get a blueprint piece. Glad to see someones thinking about group effort rather than whats in it for me right here right now.
 

DeletedUser6968

Yup! I donated FP to those who built GB in our guild.. I got rewards. Now I have 3 PB of St Marks in particular. I'm in the process of gathering the resources for that building. I'm not in a hurry here.

So take your time and enjoy the game because it's only a game and your suppose to have fun playing it.
 

DeletedUser1993

Has anyone suggested the possibility of trading blueprints especially as i can not see the point of having the same two blueprints for a great building. The building wouldn't actually be great if you built 2 of them would it.
 

DeletedUser4089

Duplicate blueprints will have some use implemented in the future.
 

DeletedUser

Let's say, i motivate/polish only CA buildings of let's say.... 100 players in a streak. I will have xx% chance to get a BP

Let's also say i motivate/polish only BA buildings of same amount of players. I will have yy% chance to get BP

And i motivate/polish buildings of different ages of again the same 100 players. I will have zz% of chance tog et BP

Questions are:

Do xx, yy, zz percentages have the same value?
Are chances of getting bronze age BP higher than of getting colonization age BP?
Are chances of getting BP higher if you stick to same age buildings?
 

DeletedUser3315

The drop rates seem really, really low. Since the inception of BP's i have polished / motivated 389 guild mates, pol / mot 209 neighbours and plundered 168 neighbours.

Blue Prints found?

2

As a non - diamond player this is the biggest disparity there has ever been on this game. Everything else could be acheived through activity but with drop rates like this i have no chance of competing, no matter how hard i play. Very disappointed.
 

DeletedUser6974

As a non - diamond player this is the biggest disparity there has ever been on this game. Everything else could be acheived through activity but with drop rates like this i have no chance of competing, no matter how hard i play. Very disappointed.

Just keep playing the game for the fun of it, dont get disappointed.
as things get more complex and involved thats when players think they have to work harder and harder at the game to keep up with others, then its no more fun.
Search for BP's along with your normal game play.

I just hope they do something about giving an option instead of plundering to look for a BP after a battle.
I like doing the battles for PvP points for victory expansions but i would never plunder after the battle, i would just do the battle, and click on the next city to attack and would never go in and plunder, i dont need the few coins or whatever that i could get by plundering. no harm to the city i did battle with, the only one hurt was me if i lost troops and had to spend my own resources to rebuild a lost soldier. But now if i want to go for PvP points and also look for BP's i have no choice but to plunder.

I have used diamonds to build houses with more population because i keep running out of people to support new buildings and a diamond house has more than twice the people with it. Or i'll buy the diamond building to make more supplies to keep up with the amount of supplies needed to keep my 15 goods manufacturing buildings running 24-7.

I am not going to let this race for a GB bother me and i don't see myself using diamonds on them, i dont have room for one anyway.
So thank you to the ones buying all the diamonds since its keeping a fun game still free for me to enjoy, if i ever do find all 9 BP's for a GB I'll see if i can make room and go from there.
The way it looks its going to be a long time which is fine with me.
So far i have found 4 BP's for 3 different buildings.
While I'm searching for enough of them to make all 9 BP's i'm sure i'll find duplicates which will slow me down even more so all i can do is keep looking and not get frustrated that i dont find the one i want after every time i click on a house, or a doctor, or a graveyard or a farm or whatever.
Until then i'm in it for the fun of it.

Like the old saying goes "Rome wasn't built in a day!!"

KEEP IT FUN!!
 

DeletedUser

Those who do not want to buy diamonds will contribute their forge points to those who have built a great building, the more you donate the better the rewards are, i have people from other guilds donating and their rewards are 2 BPs medals and more FPS, If one person is to build a Great Building and other contribute then they will sooner rather than later get one themselves
 

DeletedUser

I agree this an exellent way at speeding up the buliding of a GB if your unable/unwilling to spend Diamonds.
I've got Deal Castle in Dinegu if anyone wants to be friends and donate :-)
 

DeletedUser

I want to add my (extremely long-winded) two cents into the thread. I understand that there are conflicting interests that must be balanced and that both sides have some very good points. From the side of hint2, you have to understand that he (she?) has invested a great deal of time and effort into this game assuming that the diamonds have a certain value in relation to time/effort. In other words, assuming a diamond value fixed in term of time spent in game, does the pricing of the GB represent a shift (lower) from the previous diamond cost value of existing game features.

To do this requires one to quantify the effects of various Great Buildings relative to the cost in both space requirements and time value which is a difficult effort due to multiple dependencies that do not give a single answer. Based on surface evaluations, it appears that the very active player currently at a very advanced stage will be in the best position to leverage a moderate diamond investment to separate themselves from the very active advanced non-diamond player. In other words, the introduction of this feature appears to have caused a large devaluation in the PREVIOUSLY INVESTED time value of the highly active non-diamond player.

A secondary effect is the risk that this subset of players that has been most negatively impacted will abandon the game leaving an even greater gap between the player tiers. It also doesn't help that the tier of players below the top tiers that would be willing to spend diamonds (I put myself in that category) would benefit much from investing diamonds to acquire BP as the space investment and the relatively few buildings that can be modified provide less of a return to me than they do for a top tier player.

It seems to me that the implementation of the GB has been less than optimal in creating a greater imbalance favoring top tier players that are also diamond users. While this might be more understandable if the level of diamond investment were such to create a great inflow of dollars to Innogames that creates a greater bond between all customer subsets spending diamonds resulting in greater diamond purchases down the road (remember that for online gaming companies, a transaction that converts a free customer to a paying customer has a value well beyond the dollar value of that transaction and transactions from already paying customers). My concern is that the inability of lower tier players to leverage their diamond investment in acquiring BP's into game advancement at the rate that they initially hoped could lead to an effect that is less than the desired level. I acknowledge that I could be overstating this risk if the coolness factor of having a GB for players outside the top tier outweighs the actual building effects in terms of game progression. Also, the relative cheapness in diamond terms could mean that the buildings are delivering a greater in game effect than other diamond spending alternatives for players outside of the top tier.

Getting back to the main point, there are some very delicate interests that need to be balanced - hard core not-paying players that contribute to the game experience, converting non-paying customers into paying customers without alienating the non-paying contributing base, increasing the rate and level from current diamond buyers without incurring a backlash, game balancing (immediate effects, intermediate and long-term), realism as well as others I may have omitted. It certainly is not a simple task and one that is guaranteed to result in expressions of dissatisfaction from every corner.

With that being said, I think that an emphasis on minimizing the game balance effects among the top tier players segmented into diamond players and non-diamond players should have been made a higher priority in the initial implementation. I suppose that Innogames is relying on the top tier non-diamond players to remain loyal while they endure the greatest negative impact (as these players relate their progress against top tier diamonders). If that is what ultimately happens, I suppose that the gamble may pay off, at least in the short run. My fear is that the top tier diamond players leverage the low diamond cost of the GB to create a gap at the tap so large that the only way to address it is through a measure that will then be seen as unfair by the top tier diamonders. Since this segment of highly active paying customers is the most desirable segment from a business standpoint, it would be a difficult business decision to implement measures that specifically target them even if they have received the greatest benefit from the initial implementation. It would require a perspective of enlightened self-interest to accept the changes without resistance for the best interests of FOE for them to accept without great resistance.

This is why I think that the argument that imbalances can be addressed later fall short of the mark, IMO. I think that it is critical that you get it right on the first go even if there is a resulting delay. Introducing imbalance into the game has an amplified negative effect even if it is corrected later. For one, there is no way to address the imbalance that applies fairly to all entrants because they will have had varying positive and negative effects from the imbalance that was previously introduced. Fair compensation would require that compensating penalties and benefits by applied that are (at least somewhat) in proportion to the benefits and penalties that resulted from the imbalance being addressed.

From a game balance optimization perspective, the effects of diamonds would be limited primarily to overcoming an activity gap which would produce diminishing effects for the highly active player (at least when that player is also in the top tier of points). Essentially, there would be a logarithmic relation between diamonds and game progression. However, it may be that this conflicts with financial considerations and thus not viable to implement. In terms of how this would apply to BP acquisition, a sliding scale for diamond price of BP depending on the players current level, a diminished effect of GB based on how the BP's were acquired, a lower cap level for purchased rather than organically produced GB's.

Ultimately, it would probably be a "fairer" game if Innogames were to switch to a pure subscription model with the ability to Grandfather in some of the existing long-time players with free subscriptions ranging from three months to one or two years. Maybe you could throw in diamond effects that only served to enhance your activity (e.g. auto-collect from buildings when you are away from your computer).
 

DeletedUser276

Ultimately, it would probably be a "fairer" game if Innogames were to switch to a pure subscription model with the ability to Grandfather in some of the existing long-time players with free subscriptions ranging from three months to one or two years. Maybe you could throw in diamond effects that only served to enhance your activity (e.g. auto-collect from buildings when you are away from your computer).

Unfortunately no innogames game has a subscription feature. I didnt really read the rest of what you said as its really long winded sorry :(
 

DeletedUser3315

Very eloquently written Tedbell and i agree with your sentiments entirely.
 

DeletedUser

Unfortunately no innogames game has a subscription feature. I didnt really read the rest of what you said as its really long winded sorry :(

I'm not suggesting that Innogames employ a "pure" subscription model. This model only would seem to work for those games that have developed an extremely large and devoted player base while this game has a long way to reach that point if that is even possible with a cerebral game like this. Another variant that I have seen is a optional subscription model that delivered a fixed percentage increase in resources to subscribers. I believe there were also various in-game uses for diamond equivalents but they were not quite as extensive as FOE offers.

The point I was making is that limiting diamond use to making up for less time spent in the game seems the fairest way to go. Whether this would work would depend on how much of the current diamond purchasing is being done by players that are also very active as this is where revenue would be lost. The potential gain would be in expanding the base of players that like the game, but are put an extreme disadvantage because they are not as active as others. A GB implementation that gives greatest diamond leverage to the top end players is a step away from this direction.
 

DeletedUser276

aha I read it.... mostly... for some reason every time I tried reading it my mind started to wander and I lost focus. Never happens to me in the forums as I love reading which is why I picked the forums to look after.... sigh.

ok as for my response to that I will go back to what I have said numerous times which apparently never get read.

1. This isnt diamond users vs non diamond users though everyone seems to think so.
-Diamond users get a big advantage though not as big as other sites I have seen. If they never got this advantage they would not buy diamonds. So yes Diamond users will ALWAYS be ahead in the game. No amount of attempted negotiations will change that. I think I mentioned before it was getting droll always hearing this complaint. Money moves the world my friends and it always will.

2. Your idea of having a subscription is a horrible idea. So we retro peoples subscription for say 2 months. then charge them a monthly fee to play the game. we will lose 60% of our playerbase because they wont or cant renew their subscription. Doesnt matter how long you have them get a free subscription. Plus all new players would scream bloody murder that it cost them x amount to login and play when others get months for free or years as you say.

3. The game is out and changing how it operates in the diamond purchasing would cause too much of a commotion from players already buying diamonds and curses from those that prefer the new system and even more from those that hate the new system. Any change added makes a big difference and when you change the premium features from the site you make the players who spend money very angry.

4. To be absolutely honest and blunt most of the negative posts that are in here are from players who dont buy diamonds wanting the same shake as players that do. I do realize that some players that buy diamonds are in here but then it appears to be an attempt on making the game cheaper for them. Bottom line is players that buy diamonds are ahead. Trying to balance with non diamond players isnt a great idea as it removes incentive to buy diamonds.

I am now giving notice that any more discussion on diamonds users vs non diamond users in this thread will be dealt with as slander against the game. I have cautioned for this before. This will be my final caution. I love feedback but not when its continuous bashing or blatant laziness on we dont want to actually work and have the game unlocked to us in its entirety faster.
 

DeletedUser

I disagree with nearly all of the points made by the posters above regarding the inbalance of Great Buildings. (surprise!) But why:

All of these complaints are based solely and purely on premium users getting their GBs fast and how it's unfair versus the other players, in addition to the "you are now forced to buy diamonds and this is one big money grabbing hoax" -argument.

All of your arguments are true, if you base it on 1 wrong assumption: The BPs and GBs are able to be collected within 1 week.

This is simply not the case. There have been complaints that there is too little to do, so the devs listened to the community and added a feature that was meant to be pursued, collected and built slowly, over time. As a side project while you are advancing your town.
Ofcourse there are the big fish that can't wait and buy the whole thing asap, but they are the actual exceptions, even though they seem many, but they actually do pay for it.

None of your arguments hold if you take the fact that these buildings are meant to be found, built and completed to max level over the course of months. Not a week.

The premium costs of these buildings are just as balanced as anything else in the game, if you regard it over time. If you want it all RIGHT NOW, then yes it's a giant bulk of diamonds that seems to be completely disproportional to any other costs in the game.

Please also note that you don't even need to use the diamonds to get these buildings. And you don't need to buy 20000 Forge Points to build and support these buildings. Those are choices. Choices that have costs.
But anything in the world has higher costs if you want it done fast and are unable to just wait and enjoy the long term side quest that this feature was meant to be.

And that's my personal 2 cents.

- L
 

DeletedUser

You seem to have done a good job of completely misrepresenting my argument completely. I tried to be extremely precise in narrowly identifying a POTENTIAL problem which could exist but could also be refuted with mathematical arguments that would impact only a specific subset of players. I went on to state how financial considerations and the response effect of the potentially disadvantaged players could result in an inconsequential effect to the long term health of the game.

In my argument, I freely admit that I am uncertain if the effects of the Great Buildings are out of balance with other diamond alternatives for those top tier players though I am inclined to believe that this is true. If you want to offer a quantifiable mathematical argument to the contrary, I have no problem in acknowledging this error.

In fact, some of your arguments appear to support the point of my argument of imbalance:

"None of your arguments hold if you take the fact that these buildings are meant to be found, built and completed to max level over the course of months. Not a week."

It is precisely the ability for some players to DRAMATICALLY accelerate the development of these GB through the use of diamonds that is the issue. My initial impression is that I don't think that applying diamonds to the purchase of GB is a wise move for anyone outside of the top tier of players who have a sufficiently large territorial base to fully utilize the modifying effects of most (non-military) buildings. I am speaking ONLY to the potential to create a wider gap between existing top tier players (let's say those that have completed the tech tree and have a territory size in the top 20 of all participants in a given world) due to an imbalance of the effects of the GB relative to alternative diamond uses for those same players.

I would appreciate it if you could address this argument specifically. Mathematical examples that show that the return on diamonds invested for the specific subset of players in question for BP relative to alternative diamond uses would be preferred.

It also may be true that we do not share the same level of concern if such a gap were created. It may turn out that a gap is created but it does not turn out to impact the dedication of the non-paying core players such as hint. Or that the financial benefits outweigh any loss of loyalty among core non-payers.



I disagree with nearly all of the points made by the posters above regarding the inbalance of Great Buildings. (surprise!) But why:

All of these complaints are based solely and purely on premium users getting their GBs fast and how it's unfair versus the other players, in addition to the "you are now forced to buy diamonds and this is one big money grabbing hoax" -argument.

All of your arguments are true, if you base it on 1 wrong assumption: The BPs and GBs are able to be collected within 1 week.

This is simply not the case. There have been complaints that there is too little to do, so the devs listened to the community and added a feature that was meant to be pursued, collected and built slowly, over time. As a side project while you are advancing your town.
Ofcourse there are the big fish that can't wait and buy the whole thing asap, but they are the actual exceptions, even though they seem many, but they actually do pay for it.

None of your arguments hold if you take the fact that these buildings are meant to be found, built and completed to max level over the course of months. Not a week.

The premium costs of these buildings are just as balanced as anything else in the game, if you regard it over time. If you want it all RIGHT NOW, then yes it's a giant bulk of diamonds that seems to be completely disproportional to any other costs in the game.

Please also note that you don't even need to use the diamonds to get these buildings. And you don't need to buy 20000 Forge Points to build and support these buildings. Those are choices. Choices that have costs.
But anything in the world has higher costs if you want it done fast and are unable to just wait and enjoy the long term side quest that this feature was meant to be.

And that's my personal 2 cents.

- L
 

DeletedUser276

people purchasing great buildings actually unlocks buildings for non diamond users faster. *shrug* Then unlocking buildings and non diamond buyers mooching by giving fp to the building unlock that ages blue prints for each level up for the top 5 contributors to that building. So 10 times the top 5 fp givers get a blue print. This speeds things up for non diamond users. Them taking months to unlock IS the point. It gives them something to do other than getting to colonial age and complaining there isnt much left to do.

are we done yet? absolutely last time. We got the feedback on what you think of the huuuuuuge apparent gap for those that support the site to those that dont support the site but want all the benifits of the site.
 
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