Bullies

[Dead-Eye]

In case you wondered. I liked that because it was funny.

It's supposed to be funny.

 

[Praeceptor]

...I don't perceive that argument as proof that PvP/non PvP neighbourhoods cannot work. It is really only something that has to be worked upon to ensure that the game remains balanced and fair for everybody whilst also ensuring that they cn enjoy themselves.

The main argument that separate hoods won't work are concerning the programming issues. You would need 2 different quest lines for every event for a start, otherwise farmers would be disadvantaged. The beta testing would be a nightmare. Assuming that the game is written in an object oriented way, many object event routines would need to be edited to allow for different actions ( e.g. no attack option when you click on a neighbour in the peaceful hood ), and a new set of graphics and layout to match. What about scoring? In the past farmers were awarded points for coin/supplies collection. There was a pretty big outcry when that was changed. To keep things balanced they would have to reinstate this scoring method, and they have shown no interest in doing that. Inno have always been reluctant to consider any development which has a major impact on code, so I can't see them making a monumental change like this just to please a few players who don't want to fight. They developed Elvenar exactly for that reason, so I think this idea will be dead in the water.

 

[DeletedUser110179]

I very seldom plunder. When I do it is to encourage my opponent to put a decent defense in place so I can get the points I want to improve my score. Even if I did plunder, it is not bullying.

I understand that many people are averse to plundering ... in the same way that they might hate lying or even any kind of deception.
I guess you can try to live in that kind of lopsided world of hypocrisy but FoE has embraced the whole world in a very honest fashion.

As to bullying ... it's become loaded with innuendo to the point of labelling anyone willing to fight for something.
I don't plunder or even attack the neighbours (although I did when I started playing) but I feel that it's a wonderful dynamic of the game. Chess is one of the greatest games of all-time but there is no resource development ... you start with a full set of pieces and steadily lose them. FoE has embraced progress (thru resource development) and loss & destruction (thru battle and plunder).

Such is life ... segmentation and interaction (running away from danger or dealing with discomfort) .

 

[DeletedUser110481]

You need to realise that this discussion about fighting has been going on for years. I and many other experienced players have posted many suggestions on these boards about that, some of which have been implemented. Until recently neighbourhoods were completely unbalanced with Oceanic Future players fighting Iron age settlements. Now we have a balanced neighbourhood system where you have every chance to defend against other players if you choose to do so. No player is invincible, nor should they be. I am 26th in Dinegu yet players in the Era below me can defeat me if they use the right tactics and troops, despite my heavy defense. That is the way it should be. Most players appreciate the points I give them by having a strong defense and they don't plunder, but some do and that's alright. I see that as a challenge - part of the fun - changing your defense to secure your city. This is a complex game and to lose any aspect would diminish it in my view.

The simple fact is that this IS the game most people want. It's only a few players that want to see this game turn into anther Farmville. So thanks for the offer, but I'll stick to making realistic suggestions to improve the game, and not change it out of all recognition. If you want a city builder without plunder - play Elvenar - it's just how you want this game to be.

That's okay. that's your decision

 

[DeletedUser111165]

I sympathise with the initial poster of this thread and nany many of the others reaponding with similar annoyances with the greedy players who dont seem to understand they are pissing fellow players off. My issue is with game management who think this plundering aspect of the game is ok and who fully encourage it not the 'bullies' particularly, who dont care that ordinary human beings wanting to relax are being pissed off.
Many of us have a hard days stressful job and want a fun experience playing games in our leisure. Being pissed off aint fun. I love this game and have taken off road my townhalls in a couple of my cities in frustration. Im a gamer of 12 years in a proper pvp pc game , operation flashpoint and arma. They are almost true war gaming simulation games which truly test pvp skills and very rewarding. With the crappy ai defence in foe this is just a farce and a rediculous excuse for pvp game inclusion.
Stop this plundering and concentrate on all the rest that is awsome in this game
Eq.

 

[Dead-Eye]

Or you could put up a good defence and try to collect on time. Just sayin.

 

[DeletedUser110179]

Or you could put up a good defence and try to collect on time.

Collecting on time over one week may be a very poor strategy ... given 24hr collection creep (also interspersed with 8hr collection cycles) .

A determined pilferer may well get you during his full stay as your neighbour ... multiplied by the number of active and capable assailants ... despite your best efforts to collect on time.
Under the hail of gunfire ... increasing production (fp/good/coin/supplies) to reduce % loss to manageable proportions ... may well be the best strategy .

It's a bit like shop-lifting ... 100% eradication is more costly than the problem .
Peace of mind is a different matter entirely .

 

[DeletedUser110481]

If any body has access to the Ideas section. can you please check out the "PvP and non PvP neighbourhoods" suggestion that I have made. It is very long. I prepared as much as possible before writing it with lots of notes and it still took an hour and a half to write, so I understand if you skim it. Sadly, it had to cover a lot of points because if it wasn't comprehensive it would not show how I have tried to balance the game to be fair.

I have tried very maintain that balance in the game in my suggestion so that PvP players are not disadvantaged if the game is divided into nice and nasty neighbourhoods. I am happy for any suggestions or thoughts. Flaws are equally welcome as it will give me something to work on fixing. If you like it (or even if you think it is a good start, just needing improvements to make it work better), please thumbs up it, hopefully with the things you liked and didn't like, or things you sort of liked but think could be improved. If you thumbs down it, though, I would like you to say why, as that would still be helpful.

I believe that if this is a good way to go and I'm hoping that it can be implemented.

 

[Praeceptor]

I sympathise with the initial poster of this thread and nany many of the others reaponding with similar annoyances with the greedy players who dont seem to understand they are pissing fellow players off. My issue is with game management who think this plundering aspect of the game is ok and who fully encourage it not the 'bullies' particularly, who dont care that ordinary human beings wanting to relax are being pissed off.
Many of us have a hard days stressful job and want a fun experience playing games in our leisure. Being pissed off aint fun. I love this game and have taken off road my townhalls in a couple of my cities in frustration. Im a gamer of 12 years in a proper pvp pc game , operation flashpoint and arma. They are almost true war gaming simulation games which truly test pvp skills and very rewarding. With the crappy ai defence in foe this is just a farce and a rediculous excuse for pvp game inclusion.
Stop this plundering and concentrate on all the rest that is awsome in this game
Eq.

If players don't like the jeopardy of playing against real opponents with a risk of losing a few insignificant items then you are playing the wrong game. To give an example of a game where pvp does not involve any consequence for the loser ignores all those games where the consequence of losing is massive - to the point of losing whole cities sometimes. If you are irritated ( there is a bad language rule here) by plundering, then the answer is to irritate off! Lol.

Collecting on time over one week may be a very poor strategy ... given 24hr collection creep (also interspersed with 8hr collection cycles) .

A determined pilferer may well get you during his full stay as your neighbour ... multiplied by the number of active and capable assailants ... despite your best efforts to collect on time.
Under the hail of gunfire ... increasing production (fp/good/coin/supplies) to reduce % loss to manageable proportions ... may well be the best strategy .

It's a bit like shop-lifting ... 100% eradication is more costly than the problem .
Peace of mind is a different matter entirely .

This makes a lot of sense. I very seldom plunder, but there are several players in my hood who never have anything to take even if I did. That's the right way to deal with plundering instead of whinging in the forum.

 

[Praeceptor]

If any body has access to the Ideas section. can you please check out the "PvP and non PvP neighbourhoods" suggestion that I have made. It is very long. I prepared as much as possible before writing it with lots of notes and it still took an hour and a half to write, so I understand if you skim it. Sadly, it had to cover a lot of points because if it wasn't comprehensive it would not show how I have tried to balance the game to be fair.

I have tried very maintain that balance in the game in my suggestion so that PvP players are not disadvantaged if the game is divided into nice and nasty neighbourhoods. I am happy for any suggestions or thoughts. Flaws are equally welcome as it will give me something to work on fixing. If you like it (or even if you think it is a good start, just needing improvements to make it work better), please thumbs up it, hopefully with the things you liked and didn't like, or things you sort of liked but think could be improved. If you thumbs down it, though, I would like you to say why, as that would still be helpful.

I believe that if this is a good way to go and I'm hoping that it can be implemented.

Kipper, this is a substantial and on the whole, well thought out piece of work.

I'm not going to go through your idea pulling it apart, but I would repeat my earlier comment that Inno are very unlikely to do the massive programming effort required to incorporate all this complexity, even if there was overwhelming support from players. Unfortunately for you, there has not been a single comment over the weekend, positive or otherwise. Most of us will just get on with playing the game as it has been for the past 5 years, and just slap our foreheads when we get caught by plunderers. C'est la vie.

 

[DeletedUser111165]

Praeceptr , you seem more worried about the word Pissing than the rest of the context of my comments above. Perhaps I distracted you a bit.. ok hitting on another player city is really not pvp , not in FoE . Because its not playing against 'real opponents'. Its simply playing against the standard of skill AI has been programmed to be together with the player choice of ai abilities building boosts and help from the players guild level boosts . A real pvp game can demand gamers of varient skills above ai unit and city management and the challenge of player vs player a true pvp experience. It includes player cognitive skills , reactions, planning and player experience amongst many more human abilities. And even when under stress or tiredness. In this game players can switch off, have a whiskey and puff a pipe or whatever whilst hoping their stupid AI looks after them. Dont kid yourself that there are pvp gaming inclusion here , its simply city and AI defence management .
In forums you ought to be aware that there are always ideas with possible improved changes that can be made through reasonable debate . Suggesting that players accept things as is or 'irritate off' as your response is not a constructive way forward.

 

[Praeceptor]

You can argue about semantics, but most of us know what PvP means, and really don't need it explained. Inno call it PvP so that's ok with me. It's interesting that you have only fought 1600 battles in your strongest city yet you feel the need to explain to me (42,000 battles) how fighting works.

Given that this subject has been discussed endlessly on these forums with very little support for change suggests to me that players do accept things as they are (apart from a small minority), and that therefore we do not need "a way forward". The proper place for this is in the ideas section and kipper has made a submission there. Once again there is no support for it so why can't we just let it drop and get on with the game "as is"

What makes me cross is the notion that there should be "nice" and "nasty" neighbourhoods and that those who belong in the nasty hood are bullies. In this game real bullies get banned. I wish whingers would too.

 

[DeletedUser110195]

You can argue about semantics, but most of us know what PvP means, and really don't need it explained. Inno call it PvP so that's ok with me. It's interesting that you have only fought 1600 battles in your strongest city yet you feel the need to explain to me (42,000 battles) how fighting works.

Given that this subject has been discussed endlessly on these forums with very little support for change suggests to me that players do accept things as they are (apart from a small minority), and that therefore we do not need "a way forward". The proper place for this is in the ideas section and kipper has made a submission there. Once again there is no support for it so why can't we just let it drop and get on with the game "as is"

What makes me cross is the notion that there should be "nice" and "nasty" neighbourhoods and that those who belong in the nasty hood are bullies. In this game real bullies get banned. I wish whingers would too.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd like to see the smart AI in charge of city defense, and some actual pvp...beyond beating what another player gives their AI to fight with, like in this idea. I think people need to get over plundering being in the game, there is Elvenar for those who don't like it, which has all the same gameplay elements minus players attacking each other's cities.

 

[DeletedUser110481]

Kipper, this is a substantial and on the whole, well thought out piece of work.

I'm not going to go through your idea pulling it apart, but I would repeat my earlier comment that Inno are very unlikely to do the massive programming effort required to incorporate all this complexity, even if there was overwhelming support from players. Unfortunately for you, there has not been a single comment over the weekend, positive or otherwise. Most of us will just get on with playing the game as it has been for the past 5 years, and just slap our foreheads when we get caught by plunderers. C'est la vie.[/QUOTE
Thank you for saying my work is substantial and well thought out.

However, if you think you can pull it apart, please do so, as, if there are any flaws in it I need to know.

I have tried very hard to build on existing processes to reduce the complexity of the programming. The only thing that is really new is the compensation if you delete some Great Buildings within a specified period. Whilst there is a lot of stuff, things like adjusting what buildings do are done all the time. I know this from threads like "my Great Building isn't as good as it used to be".

I knew from the beginning that this would be a long road, but you probably should be able to tell by now that I am not known for ever giving up. I know that I have substantial support from in game players. Unfortunately most keep getting back to me and saying they can't get on the forums. I understand that, as it took me three tries of contacting support before mine got through and other people are not generally as persistent. I also suspect that Support fixed my access as they wanted to stop the "I support kkipperr" messages that I had organised. Also, there is generally at least one thread in the last two guilds that I have been in every week or two saying "please help me. I am being constantly plundered". Surely the fact that there are people who don't want to be involved means that this issue should be addressed. They are people too and every bit as important as the *expletive deleted*s who like to attack and plunder people. (sorry I put in the *expletive deleted* myself. I was jealous of the thread that had some deleted earlier lol) (and I would say more important because their motivation is they don't want to hurt people or be hurt whereas the *expletive deleted* players motivation is to gain by hurting somebody else)

I sent out messages to everyone in my Guild, Friends and neighbourhood (in my neighbourhood it was only if they were ranked lower than me, which generally isn't many. I'm very happy with my current neighbourhood. I'm 26th. That's the second highest I have ever started in a neighbourhood in lol).. I have had 14 replies of support (actually 17 total replies. 2 I think supported me, but wasn't completely sure so I won't count them and 1 definitely didn't like the idea of players being alllowed to opt out of PvP) 14 out of about 250 may not sound many, but that was only the ones who felt strongly enough to reply.

Also, my gut feeling (i.e. I know that I have no actual basis for thinking this other than an attempt to work out why, so nobody please go "you don't know for sure" and think that you have scored a win) is that the Elvenar example that is often cited may possibly prove my point. It seems to me that it is an acknowledgement by the designers that PvP is not a necessary part of the game. After all, Elvenar was designed after FoE. Why would they leave it out if it was so important?

I'm very much a "well, call my bluff kind of guy" as you may have realised, so...

Give my post a thumbs up and let the Developers decide if they think it is a good plan.

Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the Forge of Empires lol

 

[Praeceptor]

...the Elvenar example that is often cited may possibly prove my point. It seems to me that it is an acknowledgement by the designers that PvP is not a necessary part of the game. After all, Elvenar was designed after FoE. Why would they leave it out if it was so important?

But that surely does prove the point that the game you want already exists. There is no need to change Forge because they designed a game for those who don't want PvP.

Inno also designed Grepolis - a game where you can lose your entire city when you are defeated in battle. From the wiki...

"Did they take everything? Don't worry, in Grepolis this does not mean the end for you. If your city should be conquered you can start again and use the lessons you have learned to avoid any mistakes you may of made previously. Naturally we understand you would wish to remain with your original Alliance. Your new city will be placed in a position where the other players around you are of a similar game level to yourself and with the knowledge you have gained previously you have the possibility of this time becoming much more successful and powerful."

A few players complained about the loss of their cities so Inno made FoE where the consequences of losing are trivial. That's why I can't understand why people get so upset about losing a few goods. Grepolis remains the same - so should FoE.

 

[DeletedUser110481]

But fighting is not what attracts people to a city building game, which this is. I was attracted because I wanted to build my city and go "behold my city. Isn't it pretty" and I am fairly sure that most of the new players want that. And as a consequence, I don't want to bandon my city. I am upset that I can't write "Kipper" in parks so that I can look down on my city with my name on it from above, though. However, I don't think they will change that

 

[Praeceptor]

But this is not just a city building game - It's very clear from the start that there is fighting involved; it should not come as a surprise. Even Elvenar has fighting (although no plundering). The only "builder game" I know of which has no fighting is Farmville.

The answer is in your own hands - get lots of friends and implement the city shield in the tavern every 3 days. Solved!

 

[DeletedUser110481]

I'm not sure if people saying that I should just put up a tavern shield is because they are not good at maths or they think I'm not. The cost is substantial, and it causes knock on effects that are quite debilatating. For instance, you cannot buy other Tavern Boosts without paying diamonds, so if you want a fourth turn for the GE it is expensive. the damage done to you is not as great as that cost would be.

"It's your fault that I keep hitting you on the knuckles with this stick. There is a simple solution. If you cut your hand off I won't be able to do it any more. The answer is in your hands (or lack thereof)"

I am still completely not understanding why PvP players are so against this. At the moment a lot of players want to be farmers, but fighter players attack them and force them not to be. None of my changes stop anyone from being a fighter. Why is that a problem? I can only imagine that the sole reason that fighters want to attack people who don't want to be involved is because they want to attack them, not because "it's only a game" or "it's your fault, you should have defended better" (don't get me started on this blame the victim mentality) or because it's a wargame (because it still will be to them after the changes). Is the reason that you don't want this change still going back to the bullying? It is the only reason that I can possibly imagine because all of the other arguments are, frankly, quite stupid. Deliberately upsetting somebody just because you can is not the sign of a healthy mind.

 

[LadyHecate]

At the moment a lot of players want to be farmers, but fighter players attack them and force them not to be.

A good farmer harvests his crops when they are ready! Think of plunderers as a force of nature hitting the crops that aren't harvested on time. Perhaps Inno should introduce "spoiling" where goods generated in a goods building begin to spoil and reduce in number the longer they are not collected on time!

 

[DeletedUser108047]

I have certainly seen dead fish recently above goods buildings!