Morals??

[DeletedUser]

Split hairs all you want, there's nothing wrong with what this guild is doing. I'm pretty sure this is the exact reason there's no cooldown on leaving/joining guilds (there have been complaints about guild hopping since guilds first came out). It's not "bush league" to even the playing field when a group of your neighbors are acting against you.

 

[DeletedUser]

it is only evening the playing field if everyone does it man. Are you saying you have a group of neighbors that are all in the same guild? Are they doing this too? Otherwise you aren't evening anything. To say there is no cooldown because they intended this is completely intellectually dishonest man. They wouldn't have removed the ability to attack in the first place if this was the intent

 

[DeletedUser]

It's evening the playing field with other players who didn't just get merged into a neighborhood with a bunch of their guildies, I don't get what my neighborhood has to do with anything. Allowing them this method of still gaining PvP points is actually the only way to keep it fair for them under the current system. It's just not that big a deal, no matter how much you want it to be.

 

[DeletedUser]

haha then why are you making up reasons to justify it that require ignoring basic mechanics of the game. That is my main problem with it (as should be clear from my posts). I may at some point do it if it really does make the PvP towers impossible for me otherwise, but at this current point in time I would just be doing it to increase my world ranking and such tactics are not worth it to me. Your neighborhood is obviously important to what you are saying b/c if you have a bunch of people that are in the same, different guild in your neighborhood and you are doing this, then you are completely pulling a bush league tactic to beat them in the PvP towers and you can't say you are evening the playing field with anything resembling a straight face (unless they are doing it too).

 

[DeletedUser]

yeah except that joining a guild does limit you in that respect..... Leaving a guild gets rid of that limitation . . .

You have a strong opinion that is not likely to be changed by any post in this thread. For that reason I will only address this one point at this time.

Joining a guild did not limit me in that respect. Having 4 or 5 of my neighbors join the same guild did limit me and I had no say in that (at the time). Leaving the guild would get rid of the limitation . . . then I could attack the same neighbors I was attacking before they chose to join my guild. But when finished attacking I may want to rejoin the Guild. I was there first so I feel entitled. You are now telling me that is an exploit. I do not see it that way.

I see people joining my guild as a way (they seem to think) to avoid being attacked by me. Perhaps THAT is the exploit. I could get around it in the manner mentioned. I say "perhaps that is the exploit" because I do not see into the mind of the designers and pretend to know what they intended. I like to think that the game is evolving. We can only wait to see where the next evolution will take us.

 

[DeletedUser]

As an extreme example of your logic I could just say I will create fake accounts to level up my GBs so I can get more ranking points to make up for all the weeks I have had a tiny neighborhood. This stuff is cyclical and some are more lucky than others. You aren't evening anything and if this is a guild-wide thing then you guys are doing it even when you barely have any guildmates in the neighborhood. What bothers me is the terrible rationallization man. Btw I realize the example would be cheating.


Yeah ok then... STAYING in the guild limits you in that respect. If you didn't think that some day guild members might be in your neighborhood, it doesn't change the fact that joining a guild would limit you like that one day b/c the hoods are always shrinking and merging btw.

You are having your cake and eating it too. If you HONESTLY believe the designers intended for people to just leave and rejoin, then I don't know what to say man. You do not need a crystal ball or anything more than common sense to guess what their intent was here. You guys do it all you want, I may even at some point, but don't pretend that this is not an end run or a lame way to get one over on your neighbors in the PvP towers.

Sorry but your example is terrible and pretends that you did not have the intent to rejoin when you left to attack. You don't have this 3 part decision process where you are like "today is the day I am going to leave and get those guys" --> Leave and attack --> oh wait I liked that guild

If you have such a problem with these people joining to avoid getting attacked, then maybe you should tell your guild not to accept them? Or join a different guild? Or stop plundering them? Sounds like they are still getting attacked, so it must have been the plundering that motivated this "exploit"

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't see anything wrong with this, especially if you were in a situation like Alex described there. But even if it was just for greed, if the game allows it, and it's not an exploit (it's not because they have to be your neighbors to attack them no matter what) it's a sound strategy as far as I'm concerned. No different than making an agreement with your neighbors who aren't in your guild to put up a certain army so they can attack you and gain more points.

Just because you can do a thing, does not necessarily mean you should do a thing??. Which was the whole point of the thread. Some may call this particular type of action 'initiative', whilst other may see it as using a 'loop-hole'. I never said it was cheating, or accused ppl of being cheats. There have been times, when actions within the game were at one point used to gain an advantage over others, which were at the time not against the 'rules' and the game mechanics allowed it to happen. I am merely asking a question, now we have highlighted a particular 'style' of playing, is it right, or is it 'against the spirit of the game'. If guild members are within your 'hood, you do not have an 'action button', and (at present) actions are pol/mot.

Whilst i can see i have made some ppl feel like they have been 'caught with their hand in the cookie jar', this was not my intention, and was why i specifically did not mention names, or guilds. I can also see that ppl have been thought they need to defend their actions. Again, I have not asked for this, though it has highlighted some interesting ideologies.

One interesting point raised, was that amidst the proliferation of reasons for the action, that 'hood size was mentioned. This has long been a debating point for me. Please feel free to add your comments to this thread http://forum.en.forgeofempires.com/showthread.php?4827-We-need-better-neighbourhood-merge

 

[DeletedUser]

hello everybody

the real moral is, if a visualised unfairness declared in this forum gained no attention from the GM at all after some time, then it is not a problem to be dealt with. so players from both sides of the argument can start world war about this and nothing will be changed...

and of cos a guild that sends invites on their founder's day anniversary (or any other special days) to other guilds asking representative to join their guild as a visiting ambasador or some fancy titled VIP, would most likely be jumping out immediately to deny this guild-hopping trend as unfairness...

if anyone doubt my sited example, i personally had received a mail from a guild that tell me to do juz that... can u imagine a 1-man guild receiving this kind of invite? it is equivalent to being asked to disband my own guild and join them as a lackey. very amusing indeed...

and talking about morals... where is the moral if u have friends that come visit your city to do their bit every other day but u do not return the favor at all, because u are the biggest player in that world and your mind is only full of ideas to stay number1 and u see polishings from your friends as humble offerings from peasants which is a must-do whilest if u grace their city once in a purple moon then it is their utmost honor? and do they have to scream out loud "oh~ the mighty one remembers me~" and then faint?


and i think the ultimate solution to this would probably be changing this game to become Friends of Everybody (no guilds allowed). then it is fair, because if u want to polish/plunder 10thousand players in a day it is your own choice, and only your choice makes the difference. :p

 

[DeletedUser7719]

polish/plunder 10thousand players in a day it is your own choice, and only your choice makes the difference. :p

That's the reason why I don't like guild hopping; in theory, you can m/p mainly everyone on that world (I would say at least 2K of people are in a guild in every world which is 20*2K= 40K of coins you can try to receive a day). Back to the topic, I do not mind this tactic at all unless an idea that adds a friendly button instead of plunder pops up.

 

[DeletedUser]

@theHuge...you're as sarcastic and smug as the next, and I see right through the words you write. I willingly came out and admitted this, I was not "caught" anything. I hope you feel your sense of "victory" from this thread, because Independent Warriors will continue to crush OWL on the battlefield. Good day to you sir.

 

[DeletedUser]

@ ohcrap... 'victory'?, no loss in fact, that you seem to have an overwhelming desire to turn this into 'dig' at me personally for abroaching this subject. And whilst I (again) applaud your on going, and ever consuming desire to 'crush' other guilds, it is within this thread context, a somewhat muted point and irrelevant. I am trying to gauge ppl's thoughts and reactions to a particular play 'style' . Many have contributed said idea's in a positive and constructive way, and i would ask for you to do the same.

(if you wish to rant at me, please send me a in game message, thank you)

 

[DeletedUser]

Just because you can do a thing, does not necessarily mean you should do a thing??. Which was the whole point of the thread. Some may call this particular type of action 'initiative', whilst other may see it as using a 'loop-hole'. I never said it was cheating, or accused ppl of being cheats. There have been times, when actions within the game were at one point used to gain an advantage over others, which were at the time not against the 'rules' and the game mechanics allowed it to happen. I am merely asking a question, now we have highlighted a particular 'style' of playing, is it right, or is it 'against the spirit of the game'. If guild members are within your 'hood, you do not have an 'action button', and (at present) actions are pol/mot.

Whilst i can see i have made some ppl feel like they have been 'caught with their hand in the cookie jar', this was not my intention, and was why i specifically did not mention names, or guilds. I can also see that ppl have been thought they need to defend their actions. Again, I have not asked for this, though it has highlighted some interesting ideologies.

One interesting point raised, was that amidst the proliferation of reasons for the action, that 'hood size was mentioned. This has long been a debating point for me. Please feel free to add your comments to this thread http://forum.en.forgeofempires.com/showthread.php?4827-We-need-better-neighbourhood-merge

Yeah, you're asking a question, and I'm answering it lol There's nothing wrong with what they're doing. It's not against the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned. I only have 3 guildmates in my 'hood so I'm lucky in that I don't have to worry about it, but some people do. Not sure why you're linking a merge discussion thread, I've posted in there many times, and it has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

 

[DeletedUser]

haha then why are you making up reasons to justify it that require ignoring basic mechanics of the game. That is my main problem with it (as should be clear from my posts). I may at some point do it if it really does make the PvP towers impossible for me otherwise, but at this current point in time I would just be doing it to increase my world ranking and such tactics are not worth it to me. Your neighborhood is obviously important to what you are saying b/c if you have a bunch of people that are in the same, different guild in your neighborhood and you are doing this, then you are completely pulling a bush league tactic to beat them in the PvP towers and you can't say you are evening the playing field with anything resembling a straight face (unless they are doing it too).

Yes, I mean evening things on a world ranking scale, if I have to spell it out for you. The motivations behind using this tactic don't factor in to whether it's right or wrong anyways. Just because it's "not worth it" for you right now, doesn't mean it's wrong for someone else to gain points this way. That's the topic of the thread, not whether this happens in my 'hood or why. I'd imagine if the devs wanted to stop people from guild hopping they would have done it a long time ago, as the issue has come up a number of times in one way or another.

 

[DeletedUser1983]

it is only evening the playing field if everyone does it man. Are you saying you have a group of neighbors that are all in the same guild? Are they doing this too? Otherwise you aren't evening anything. To say there is no cooldown because they intended this is completely intellectually dishonest man. They wouldn't have removed the ability to attack in the first place if this was the intent

I have this situation against one of my guild members in Brisgard (a top 10 player that is) and some of his neighbors are from the same guild and they are using similar tactics to push him down.. BUT, you wouldn't find me or any of my members coming here crying foul about this system. It's part of the game. Everyone uses plunder as one of the tools to get neighbors to put up a defense strong enough to give you battle/ranking points. If what these two guilds are doing then the entire FoE is flawed. People become friends in their neighborhoods and then they help each other with points... Are you saying that those friends helping each other in the same neighborhood even with battle points is wrong?

This problem is bound to happen in some of the more developed neighborhoods that have gone through a series of mergers... My neighborhood for example has had 8 mergers so far, and each merger has brought at least 1 new guildmate to the neighborhood. While this merger system is already well established, I still need to grow while staying in the same guild. Therefore, this is not an exploit of a bug, this is improvisation or innovation, to promote friendships and teamwork. I don't think even the mods or devs would find anything "immoral" in such approaches. :-)

Yeah, you're asking a question, and I'm answering it lol There's nothing wrong with what they're doing. It's not against the spirit of the game as far as I'm concerned. I only have 3 guildmates in my 'hood so I'm lucky in that I don't have to worry about it, but some people do. Not sure why you're linking a merge discussion thread, I've posted in there many times, and it has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.

Couldn't agree more with you buddy.. I think the source of this thread is not a quest to find hidden answers or gather opinions from everyone active on the forum.. But rather pure jealousy and insecurity about what's happening to the said player's guild (and the player happens to be a leader of that guild)...

I do have to commend the poster of this thread on his command of English in that he has managed to keep himself at the tangents of the core issue (jealousy, insecurity, envy) without making it too explicit. He has even ventured to claim that he has caught a few players with their "hands in the cookie jar". However, maybe he was hoping to get there first and since he couldn't he started crying foul? There are always two sides of a coin, unfortunately some with a limited vision can see only one side of the coin.

 

[DeletedUser]

After reading through this thread I notice some players have felt the need to defend or justify their actions in regards to joining/leaving guilds for their own gain or make allegations towards other players.

We have recently been watching a guild (not the one I am in), which at this stage should remain nameless, for fear of shaming them all. To amass more 'battle points' for themselves as individuals and for their guild, many players leave the guild, battle their 'ex-guildmates' in their 'hoods, then rejoin the guild. Is all fair in 'love and war' or perhaps a 3-5 day cool-down period between leaving and rejoining the same guild should be imposed?

The opening post clearly didn't identify a particular guild or player and is therefore only questioning the action itself. Whilst we are all entitled to our opinions, which I would encourage us all to share, please refrain from making it personal against any single player or guild.


My Opinion:
The game is called Forge of Empires.
Forge = Make or shape (a metal object) by heating it in a fire or furnace and beating or hammering it.
Empire = An extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority.
So by definition the game is all about the creation of guilds, therefore, being in a guild, in my opinion, should be generate the most rewards for the players. The current neighbourhood system doesn't do this, as some players have stated, players from your neighbourhood can join your guild leaving you with 1 less PVP battle, multiply this by several players being added to your guild. Your neighbourhood, likely to have already shrunk from the possible 80, is now further reduced by being in your hood and as the neighbourhood shrinks, PVP opportunities shrink with it; not to mention the players with no defense.

Therefore... a guild organising itself to maximise the PVP opportunities is merely making the best of a restrictive situation. As clarified earlier, it's not against the rules and guilds do currently use the same tactic to perform trades between guilds. I think what is actually being highlighted, is that the game, by definition, is all about guilds, and yet, there is no facilitation for guild members to 'spar' or practice fighting, nor is there any way to facilitate guild alliances or trading between guilds.

I saw someone mentioned a "sparring" option - I think that would be a great idea, possibly reduce the points earned from "sparring" to 1% as rather than the 1.85% because of the greater number of players you'd be able to attack.

 

[DeletedUser4906]

After reading through this thread I notice some players have felt the need to defend or justify their actions in regards to joining/leaving guilds for their own gain or make allegations towards other players.



The opening post clearly didn't identify a particular guild or player and is therefore only questioning the action itself. Whilst we are all entitled to our opinions, which I would encourage us all to share, please refrain from making it personal against any single player or guild.


My Opinion:
The game is called Forge of Empires.
Forge = Make or shape (a metal object) by heating it in a fire or furnace and beating or hammering it.
Empire = An extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority.
So by definition the game is all about the creation of guilds, therefore, being in a guild, in my opinion, should be generate the most rewards for the players. The current neighbourhood system doesn't do this, as some players have stated, players from your neighbourhood can join your guild leaving you with 1 less PVP battle, multiply this by several players being added to your guild. Your neighbourhood, likely to have already shrunk from the possible 80, is now further reduced by being in your hood and as the neighbourhood shrinks, PVP opportunities shrink with it; not to mention the players with no defense.

Therefore... a guild organising itself to maximise the PVP opportunities is merely making the best of a restrictive situation. As clarified earlier, it's not against the rules and guilds do currently use the same tactic to perform trades between guilds. I think what is actually being highlighted, is that the game, by definition, is all about guilds, and yet, there is no facilitation for guild members to 'spar' or practice fighting, nor is there any way to facilitate guild alliances or trading between guilds.

I saw someone mentioned a "sparring" option - I think that would be a great idea, possibly reduce the points earned from "sparring" to 1% as rather than the 1.85% because of the greater number of players you'd be able to attack.

I told you a Mod would step in.....

The sparring option is not a bad idea.:cool:

 

[DeletedUser]

@knockpg Haha I can't comment on anyone else's intent in this thread, but mine has nothing to do with insecurity or jealousy... I don't think anyone in this thread is even in my world (Houndsmoor). If they are, they aren't above me. I never said anything about friends in neighborhoods helping each other with points, and I am not really sure what you mean by this. Could you give an example of what you are talking about? You talk about the mergers bringing more guildmembers into the hood (which is inevitable), but the advantage being sought here is not "evening the field" unless others are already doing it. This is a problem all guilds face.

@Kingmike actually motivations are always important when deciding whether something is wrong man. Fouls in sports, crimes, and basically all of human activity can be made wrong based on motivations. There is a huge difference b/t doing this for world ranking points and for PvP tower advantage. The WRPs are just for bragging rights. The PvP advantage has actual effects on gameplay and gaming the system like this helps the person doing it and penalizes those who don't. Maybe I should have spelled that out more clearly. Like I said, I don't even really take issue with this activity so much. It is the ludicrous justifications you guys are pulling out that I can't stomach. Just be honest about it guys.

To sit here and say this was intended just ignores the game's current setup. You would not need to leave guild if this was the intent and that should be obvious. I already mentioned ability to fight friends through PvP tower and that you can't do this with guild members.

Saying this is "evening the field" is also just dishonest. If another guild is doing this in your neighborhood already, then yeah you can say you are evening the field, but that is not what has been described here at all. I could maybe even say that I am evening the field if I do it (even though others in hood are not) because I have a tiny neighborhood where most of the top players are in my guild (and even more in sister guild which would make it close to 20% of hood). Once again, that is not what you guys have described b/c it is apparently a guild-wide behavior and there is no way everyone in guild is in that situation (and if you are, then obviously other guilds are too and you haven't said others are doing this... (thus, not evening anything)). Do whatever you want within current setup, but don't come out and pretend that this was intended or evening the field. The state of the neighborhood totally matters if you are going to say you are evening anything. Like I said, I may end up doing this, but I am not going to pretend like it is not a lame (unless I am truly evening the field) exploit of current setup.

Btw, are you saying you would stop when you get merged and have an 80 person hood with only 4 guildmates in it? Where does it stop becoming evening the field? If there is no cutoff, then you really need to stop using this justification all together.

Also, I would love a sparring option btw. I hope someone puts it in the ideas section. I would also be fine with a cooldown b/c there are other ways of exploiting guild hopping that have already been listed. There would really be no question about any of this after either of these changes.

 

[DeletedUser]

Couldn't agree more with you buddy.. I think the source of this thread is not a quest to find hidden answers or gather opinions from everyone active on the forum.. But rather pure jealousy and insecurity about what's happening to the said player's guild (and the player happens to be a leader of that guild)...

I do have to commend the poster of this thread on his command of English in that he has managed to keep himself at the tangents of the core issue (jealousy, insecurity, envy) without making it too explicit. He has even ventured to claim that he has caught a few players with their "hands in the cookie jar". However, maybe he was hoping to get there first and since he couldn't he started crying foul? There are always two sides of a coin, unfortunately some with a limited vision can see only one side of the coin.

^^^THIS!!! THANK YOU!!!

Just because he is "claiming" it was only to seek "opinions" on the matter....that claim of his is so transparent!! And he is only trying to make himself look like the better person by continuing to claim this.

I have ALWAYS refrained from contributing to "game drama" and personal attacks, but this is just making me sick inside. I can assure you that there is more than meets the eye with just this post. There have been several in-game messages exchanged regarding this. INCLUDING one from their guild to ours saying "we see what you are doing and let me assure you that it will be stopped". We then spoke to MOD regarding the matter to make sure that we were not breaking any rules. The senoir MOD informed us that several other mods had been discussing this a few days prior because they had received several messages from the guild complaining about it.

My point is...while the OP may not appear he is making a personal attack, he is, and that was the original intention of posting this. They were attempting to bring attention to the matter to make us look bad and in hopes that it would be put to and end.

This is the last I will post in this thread. I appreciate all the non judgemental feedback in this thread. I would also like to point out that we are also aware that a future update may make what we are doing a bit harder to execute, and we are just fine with that. But until then, we will continue to do what we are doing, and we will always play within the rules. I enjoy this game very much, and I also enjoy the rivalry between the two guilds. I have made friends with many people in the rival guild that we are speaking about, and I hope to continue those friendships. I hope that "issues" like these will not come between any of those friendships now or in the future.

 

[DeletedUser]

Firstly, i am not a guild 'leader', and am unaware of any such messages sent from the guild i am in. I most certainly have not sent any such messages. As stated, and acknowledged, i started this thread without mentioning any person or guild, in the hope that it would generate debate. You @ohcrap.. identified yourself (without request) and have subsequently, along with your fellow guildmate (knockpg), proceeded to question what i have written, and have resorted to personal insults, even though both of you have been repeatedly asked not to do so.
I have contributed to, and given my thoughts on many different threads, and in all that time, never have i been personally attacked/insulted in such a fashion.

@FacetiousMIke it appears that this debate can not continue without implied insults. Perhaps it would be best to lock it

 

[DeletedUser]

*stepping in*

Please keep the discussion here, interesting as it is, on topic and refrain from attacking any other player personally. Be respectful.
Don't make us issue official warnings. Thanks!