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Arc - The End of FOE?

DeletedUser

Obviously the top players on each world will argue against this thread, as they are the same players who will eventually be responsible for killing the game.
Here is what's happening and how it will play out, unless something is done about Arc.

Already, on the better developed worlds it is apparent that players with high level Arc's are point bombing, and i've already seen Arc's of over level 50 on a some worlds and on houndsmoor Addonexus' Arc has gone from level 80 to level 85 in 2 days.
level 1 arc gives 10% fp bonus and then at each level another 2%. it does not take a mathmetician to work out that level 85 means he get's 178% fp bonus. He point bombs pretty much everyone in his hood, taking away the top fp reward from the player's point swap partner. At level 95, he wont even need to wait for anyone to donate to a GB to be able to point bomb EVERY SINGLE GB IN HIS HOOD and gaurentee top spot everytime - thereby taking the lion share of blueprints, and over level 95 he will begin to profit from those point bombs. In short, he will be able to level his whole giulds GB's. At that stage, he can then level all his guilds Arc's up, then they can all point bomb each other at an incredible rate, gaining sufficient bp's of each other etc... and the problem will become exponentially unstoppable.

In this, I can see the end of the game. The very best scenario to unfold from all this is 2 or 3 plaers from different top guilds will achieve these levels closely to each other - then at least there will be a little bit of competition between those guilds - the other guilds may as well give up now - and at worst, only 1 player will achieve this level, bringing her/his guild way forward at such a rate that all other guilds on that world will fall so far behind as to be irrelevant.

A single guild levelling Arc's at exponentially increasing rates will then be able to completely own firstly the highest age, but then they will recruit players to stay in lower ages with arc's and do the same thing there (multi-accounting : foe would like us to think doesn't happen, but we know it does). And the final stray of hope, that the top players creating this scenario get bored and quit is also a falicy, as such accounts would now have a value, and would be sold (already a very common occurance on games like Evony, where the value ofa top hero give's an account value, as a top GB would here). So, although the player may change, the account would live on and continue to dominate.

So, i'd be very happy to hear any reason's why I'm wrong in these thought's - although i'd be happier to hear that a limit is to be imposed on Arc. Honestly i think Arc should be limited to level 20. Otherwise imagine this scenario (which is already close to happening on some worlds). You in a hood with 4 players who have an Arc in excess of level 50 and 2 with level 90+. they can level up all your gb's at will, obtaining all the blueprints, and costing them nearly nothing - meaning that all those blueprints that would have gone to your guilds members, or your friends / swap partners are now in the hands of the people who's only intent is to continue with opening there alrady stupidly high gb's - while everyone else suffers.
 

DeletedUser7719

Arc bonus does NOT increase by 2% every level. The first 25 levels can be seen here: https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...ildings-encyclopedia.28246/page-2#post-183131
At level 10 it's actually 31% which is a little bit larger than a 2% increase every level. From level 11-58, it only increases by 1%. There is another 2 nerfs in the increase at level 58 and 80, increasing by 0.5% and 0.1% respectively, so at level 58, the Arc has a 79% boost, level 59 is a 79.5%, level 60 is a 80% boost, level 70 is a 85%, L80 is 90%, L81 is 90.1%, L90 is 91%, and level 100 would be a 92%.
Proof:
- There have already been mentions of this in the forums
- There is an Arc bonus I'm currently recording on Fel, and noticed the 0.5% increase at level 59.
- You can look at the bonus of a high-ranking GB by going to the GB rankings, then viewing the GB, so you don't even need to be a neighbor/guildie/friend to record contribution rewards and (current and next level) GB bonuses:
nl79M2F.png



There is already a discussion about this topic here btw if you want to read up: https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/the-arc-is-too-powerful.31241/
 
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DeletedUser106918

There's a whole lot of awful math done here. It's unsurprising to reach this conclusion that way.

Firstly, your numbers are off. The Arc gains only 1% per level past level 10.
Secondly, the FP cost is a quadratic function, while the payout is linear, with respect to the Arc's level.
Combine the linear payout with the linear bonus and you get a quadratic actual payout. This is in line with the quadratic cost increase.

Therefore, exponential speed-up is something you made up.

Edit: If ByeOrDie is right on the bonus drop-off, you're even more wrong.
 

DeletedUser106918

Actually, this is exponential (though it's a very small base). I determined the formula myself through guess-and-check:
ycgsQMf.png


Note: I do not know the formula for contribution rewards (or at least for 1st place on every level). Any help on those would be appreciated
Thanks, I went off of the first few levels past 10, which made it look quadratic. Your formula seems to be correct (going off of the wiki entry).
In that case, that counters OP's poor math even more.
 

DeletedUser914

To answer this question is easy. Yes indeed arc is the end of FOE.

Now already I see people taking first place and get more FP out of it then they did put inside. No need for calculation to draw the conclusion that the arc is the end.
 

DeletedUser106918

I've put together two graphs to show that this is nonsense. This is assuming the scenario that players level each other's arc, i.e. their arcs are the same level.



Unsurprisingly, the effective payout increases at first. That's the entire point of this GB.
However, the growth gets slower and slower until it hits the drop-off at level 59, after which the payout only goes down.

Clearly this is not self-sustainable as claimed. It gets hilariously bad for really high levels.



No way people are raising arcs to infinity.
 

DeletedUser914

I've put together two graphs to show that this is nonsense. This is assuming the scenario that players level each other's arc, i.e. their arcs are the same level.

I don´t care about your graphs, I only observe that people are donating to other players great building with already a bunch of forgepoints inside. The result is, that they get more fps out of it then they put into, simply because they get an extremely high arc advantage.

And with more fps back then you put inside, you can upgrade your arc further, with the result bonus is getting bigger, and bigger.

With this box of pandora is opened.
 

DeletedUser106918

Again, you're fighting an exponential increase of FP costs with a linear increase in payout. This does not work out in the long run.
 

DeletedUser914

Again, you're fighting an exponential increase of FP costs with a linear increase in payout. This does not work out in the long run.

If I take a look at my competitors great buildings, hardly no GB is level 59. Before that will happen, alot of fps will be grabbed for free.
 

DeletedUser5180

the arc was available on the same day to everyone

fair play to those players who have already reached high levels, mine is only at 13 and I have no complaints that there is at least one level 60 in Fel Dranghyr.....

stop whinging and if you have one then grow it

edit..... this is not aimed at anyone in particular, just my overall view on it :zzz:
 

DeletedUser106918

I realized the graphs I posted were lacking context. In fact, it may be interpreted in a way that the arc dramatically increases FP payout past level 10.
With context, this looks much different:



Now it's clearly visible that the increased relative payout is not caused by the arc, but rather by the fact that the linear increase in rewards is fairly significant until the exponential growth of the cost "gets going" - whether you have an arc or not.
The arc only improves the gain and extends its duration (the peak is shifted by about 15-20 levels). But its neither the cause of the "problem" (if you see it as such) nor does it remove the eventual drop.
 

DeletedUser914

And what
the arc was available on the same day to everyone

fair play to those players who have already reached high levels, mine is only at 13 and I have no complaints that there is at least one level 60 in Fel Dranghyr.....

stop whinging and if you have one then grow it

edit..... this is not aimed at anyone in particular, just my overall view on it :zzz:

The point is not if everyone has the same chance, the point of this topic is that GBs can go sky high for nothing. I don´t whing, I only observe an unlimited amount of forgepoints for some players.
 

DeletedUser107476

The end of FoE is not the Arc it is innogames unwillingness to deal with the bugs that need fixing. The arc can be further nerfed if necessary but without a willingness to deal with other issues then I cannot see the game lasting as more and more quit.
 

DeletedUser914

I realized the graphs I posted were lacking context. In fact, it may be interpreted in a way that the arc dramatically increases FP payout past level 10.
With context, this looks much different:



Now it's clearly visible that the increased relative payout is not caused by the arc, but rather by the fact that the linear increase in rewards is fairly significant until the exponential growth of the cost "gets going" - whether you have an arc or not.
The arc only improves the gain and extends its duration (the peak is shifted by about 15-20 levels). But its neither the cause of the "problem" (if you see it as such) nor does it remove the eventual drop.

And your graph is wrong, this suggests that a higher arc level gives less pay out. which is of course nonsense.
 

DeletedUser107476

And your graph is wrong, this suggests that a higher arc level gives less pay out. which is of course nonsense.
It is in comparison to cost not what it actually pays out.
The main issue is that it assumes what someone has added to level the arc and also assumes how many adding. These variables would greater alter the cost/payout ratio.
 
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DeletedUser106918

It is in comparison to cost not what it actually pays out.
The main issue is that it assumes what someone has added to level the arc and also assumes how many adding. These variables would greater alter the cost/payout ratio.
This is entirely correct, but also irrelevant. For example, if you only put in 25% of the required FP because the GB owner paid the bulk, it doesn't do anything but scale the graph equally whether you have an arc or not.
In other words, the numbers on the vertical axis can change, but the relation between the two curves does not. So the conclusion drawn is unaffected.
 

DeletedUser107476

This is entirely correct, but also irrelevant. For example, if you only put in 25% of the required FP because the GB owner paid the bulk, it doesn't do anything but scale the graph equally whether you have an arc or not.
In other words, the numbers on the vertical axis can change, but the relation between the two curves does not. So the conclusion drawn is unaffected.
It is affected as most people are concerned on the return nothing more nothing less. That is the whole point of this thread. If an arc is highly competed over it is quite possible someone will secure 1st with one third of the number needed of fp. This greatly alters the amount of return, compared to if they put in half to secure first.
These variables therefore factor into any equation. By manipulating how and when a GB levels you can effectively alter how much return there is all by setting up the right team to do so. This kind of promotes push accounts which goes against what inno claim to stand for.
 
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DeletedUser99363

mine is at level 14 working towards lvl 60 in 3months or less hopefully,k so come join in on A world
 
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