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military great buildings too powerful?

  • Thread starter DeletedUser4800
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DeletedUser4800

Hi there. I want to start a discussion about military great buildings. I think they are way too powerful and give an unjust advantage over those who don't have a military great building. In fact everyone I know that is high level says that they get more benefits from just houses and production and they only need military building to get more medals as its easier to beat everyone.

I think at 40% or 50% they are too good. For example in LMA a 25/25 great sword at 40% would be 35/35.

While at lower levels its somewhat closer as the numbers are smaller, at higher levels from HMA to Colonial age the difference is very big.

Now imagine a colonial age Dragoon with pretty much 50 defense, at 50% improvement he gets 75 defense, that is without the bonus defense against light melee units. If you factor in all bonuses against light melee then its 90 defense.

A ranger wouldn't even make a dent and while that is not the unit to counter dragoons, even musket with 40 damage would barely do anything and would need 3 shots to defeat a dragoon.
 

DeletedUser3157

In general you point about military GPs being very powerful is correct. But all your numbers and example details I have no idea where you took them. Dragoon has 40 defense not 50, has no bonus but instead a penalty against light melee, ranger is actually the perfect unit to kill dragoons while musketeer is the worst and has 30 attack not 40.
 

DeletedUser1032

Bad numbers, but good point. Possibility does exist to have dragoons (which already have very good defense) with a 350% defense bonus. That would pretty much make them unbeatable.
 

DeletedUser3157

In all fairness I'd say 350% defense bonus makes any unit tough to beat :P
 

DeletedUser

TerraAnt said:
Bad numbers, but good point. Possibility does exist to have dragoons (which already have very good defense) with a 350% defense bonus. That would pretty much make them unbeatable.
Click to expand...

How?

There are two defensive great buildings (which only work when your units are defending) which, when combined, would give +200% defence bonus (and NO attack bonus).
There are three military great buildings (which only work when your units are attacking) which, when combined, would give a +150% attack and defence bonus.

You can't get the benefit of both military and defensive boost buildings at the same time; so the maximum defence bonus you can get is +200% and that is countered by those defending units not having an attack bonus and the attacker getting both bonuses at a slightly reduced rate.
 

DeletedUser3157

Actually we have been told that the "military" bonus applies for both units attack and defense during attack or defense. At least a bugs moderator in beta forums told me so when I personally asked it over and a game developer who replied to subiquent post never corrected or said anything about it, so I took it for 'fact'.

So that is 150% from 3 military GPs while the defense bonus adds further 200% to defense of defending units. So with those 5 GPs maxed you could be facing units in defense with 150% attack bonus and 350% defense bonus, ala making the 28/40 attack/defense dragoon into a 70/180 unit.

Either that or there has been some sort of change since the bonuses were first introduced or I was misinformed afterall.
 

DeletedUser

hint said:
Actually we have been told that the "military" bonus applies for both units attack and defense during attack or defense. At least a bugs moderator in beta forums told me so when I personally asked it over and a game developer who replied to subiquent post never corrected or said anything about it, so I took it for 'fact'.

[...SNIP...]

Either that or there has been some sort of change since the bonuses were first introduced or I was misinformed afterall.
Click to expand...

Yup, I was told that on the beta forums too before it finally went live. However, the versions implemented on the live servers (and currently on the post-release beta servers) are different from their original pre-release beta version.

You can see the images showing the tooltips for the current implementation on the beta server here: http://forum.en.forgeofempires.com/showthread.php?8931-Changelog-0-22-Discussion&p=53028#post53028. The live servers have the exact same wording (I just haven't bothered taking screenshots as there wasn't any difference).
 
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DeletedUser3157

This could just as easly be a small wording/grammer typo. We'd need just to have someone who has a player with military bonus GP in his naberhood to attack him and we could find it out once and for sure and would take only a minute.
 

DeletedUser

Doubtful, I reported the typos with missing percentage and plus signs that were confusing everyone as to whether it was a +5 or a +5% bonus and they have been fixed in the latest patch (I just checked a Statue of Zeus, Cathedral of Aachen and Deal Castle and they all now reads +X%). There have been no other corrections; so it still reads as I described above.

I have been attacked by someone with two military boost great buildings on the beta server and the bonus is definitely additive (one level 4 and the other level 2 and all his troops had +30% bonus to attack and defence). Unfortunately I have to wait 9 hours before I can test out attacking him.
 

DeletedUser

forem said:
If the attack of a unit grow by 40%, the average damage will grow by 40% too...
Click to expand...

I'm almost certain that is an incorrect statement but the dev's haven't released enough details of the battle system to know for sure.

I do know, from tidbits given by one of the game designers on the beta server, that damage is based on the multiple by which an attacking unit's attack statistic exceeds the defending unit's defence statistic. So if the attacker and defenders stats are roughly equal then you will do about 5 damage. If the attacker's attack is 10 times the defender's defence then you will do about 10 damage (a one-shot kill) and if the attacker's attack is 10 times less than the defender's defence then the attacker will do about 0 damage. From a quick battle - musketeer (attack 30) vs. musketeer (defence 18) the expected damage was 6-8 whereas 30:18 is about double; so approximately +100% bonus on the attack stat compared to defence does not give +100% damage - it gives about +2 damage (in this case - starting from a different damage ratio might give different answers).
 
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DeletedUser

Which is exactly what I was doing... I just didn't phrase it very well and I apologise.

Field Gun (attack 14) vs Musketeer (defence 18)
  • Expected damage 3-5 (median 4).
  • Ratio Attack-Defence = 0.77
Field Gun on a hill (attack 20) vs Musketeer (defence 18)
  • Expected damage 4-7 (median 5.5)
  • Ratio Attack-Defence = 1.11
Musketeer (attack 30) vs Musketeer (defence 18)
  • Expected damage 6-8 (median 7)
  • Ratio Attack-Defence = 1.67

So comparing a Field Gun on a hill (attack 20) to a Musketeer (attack 30) against the same defender, a Musketeer (defence 18), then you have a 50% increase in the attack power but a 27% increase in the median damage.

So comparing a Field Gun not on a hill (attack 14) to a Musketeer (attack 30) against the same defender, a Musketeer (defence 18), then you have a 114% increase in the attack power but a 75% increase in the median damage.

So in both cases the increase in the median damage is less than the increase in attack power.
 

DeletedUser276

ok I am going to put a few of the rumors in here to rest...

hint said:
Actually we have been told that the "military" bonus applies for both units attack and defense during attack or defense. At least a bugs moderator in beta forums told me so when I personally asked it over and a game developer who replied to subiquent post never corrected or said anything about it, so I took it for 'fact'.

Either that or there has been some sort of change since the bonuses were first introduced or I was misinformed afterall.
Click to expand...

You were told a fallacy. The defense bonus only counts towards your units defending against others trying to pillage your city and attack only counts towards battles you initiate. Someone fed you gumbo and called it lobster. There has been no change. I was looking at the info we have and it says it plain as day, so it looks like someone told you something they thought was true without checking first.

might want to redo some of the math in here :) Hope this info helps out.
 

DeletedUser3157

Thanks for clearing that.

So this means you could be facing a 28/120 dragoon with a 70/100 dragoon. It would be a long fight since both units would deal very low damages to eachother, but easly winneble for attacker since he woud be causing still much higher damage on his hits. Although such defense would be much easyer to defeat with rangers due to unit type bonus. Which leads to me another question.

Is unit type bonus effected by GPs as well? Meaning would a 35/35 ranger that is normally 45/45 vs dragoon, if it were to be maxed with 3 50% attack bonus GPs, would it be 35*2.5 +10 ala 97.5/97.5 against that dragoon or (35+10)*2.5 ala 112.5/112.5?

Input from anyone with military GP would be welcome :P
 
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DeletedUser176

hint said:
Thanks for clearing that.

So this means you could be facing a 28/120 dragoon with a 70/100 dragoon. It would be a long fight since both units would deal very low damages to eachother, but easly winneble for attacker since he woud be causing still much higher damage on his hits. Although such defense would be much easyer to defeat with rangers due to unit type bonus. Which leads to me another question.

Is unit type bonus effected by GPs as well? Meaning would a 35/35 ranger that is normally 45/45 vs dragoon, if it were to be maxed with 3 50% attack bonus GPs, would it be 35*2.5 +10 ala 97.5/97.5 against that dragoon or (35+10)*2.5 ala 112.5/112.5?

Input from anyone with military GP would be welcome :P
Click to expand...
This has to be done by a game designer, you cannot answer that from the unit popups while fighting. It just states +10, not how it is applied.
My guess would be (35*2,5)+10, but I don't know for sure.

---

Regarding the irritation with military bonus above:
In the early days of GBs on Beta, the military bonus really was applied to both attacking and defending army. Which is why there were statements of dragoons with 70/180 - this is not possible anymore.

But for nostalgia, and to prove we weren't talking **** back then: http://i46.tinypic.com/1z6zbqe.jpg ;)
 
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DeletedUser3157

Nice, that picture is awesome. Btw imo it would make more "sense" if it were (35+10)*2.5, otherwise those unit and terrain bonuses just become too irrelevent in fights with massively upgraded units.
 

DeletedUser176

Maybe it's supposed to be that way, including those bonuses in the GBs boost would make them even more powerful, a little too much in my opinion. Remember those bonuses increase with every age...
 

DeletedUser3157

And the reason they increase with every age is because otherwise they became too irrelevent, they started making up too small percentage of the actual attack or defense value when they were constant and there became less strategy involved. Same would be the case with heavyly upgraded troops should the bonus stay always same.
 

DeletedUser9815

Create another measure as a counter balance, for instance, have Great Leaders...When placed with the army, they could increase certain values of the units!
 

DeletedUser276

Go with mine :P as I dont play beta and generally stay away from it mine stands for the .en server. It has not changed on the .en server :P and we are not the beta server so beta server discussions should stay on the beta site.
 
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