Is there a program error with the Rogues?

[Puablo]

I have just noticed that the Rogue changes character - then retaliates when it is not its turn!
Scene, defending against 1 x Anti Aircraft Vehicle and 7 Rogues.
During the fight, the Rogues come forward several squares and then sit. My defence moves forward, fires at Rogue, which changes as is known to a Anti Aircraft Vehicle (AAV). Why then, does it then attack the defender that has fired at the Rogue and turned it into an AAV? It was not an AAV when it was attacked, so it has no right to return fire!! This results in extra turns being given to the attacker.
We now have a few different army types that will return fire if fired upon, that I have no problem with. But in war if you shot at a soldier and he dies, then that is it - he does not suddenly become a tank and shoot back.
It is hard enough fighting against Rogues as it is, so please look at this small program fault.

Should you think this is in the wrong area, then please copy across to the relevant place.

 

[DeletedUser11899]

I agree, that should not be so
This is why currently a lot of people are always using this combination when attacking.

 

[DeletedUser7719]

A rogue is a hidden unit, so if the hidden unit is an AAV, it will act like an AAV once it's identity is revealed and thus retaliate on the same turn

 

[DeletedUser5180]

I agree, that should not be so
This is why currently a lot of people are always using this combination when attacking.

it is meant to work this way, revealing itself when hit and thus performing any immediate action that the unit it has morphed into would perform

 

[DeletedUser96901]

A rogue is a hidden unit, so if the hidden unit is an AAV, it will act like an AAV once it's identity is revealed and thus retaliate on the same turn

but using new abilities immediately works only for AAV and MG

if it transform into a jaeger it doesn't use his hiding action immediately :confused:

and btw:
the ROGUE gets hit not the AAV, but AAV retaliates :p

 

[DeletedUser5180]

but using new abilities immediately works only for AAV and MG

if it transform into a jaeger it doesn't use his hiding action immediately :confused:

it would if it was in a forest

 

[DeletedUser7719]

When was the last time you tested that Test Ament? The MG/AAV was fixed on the 1.35 update, and I believe the stealth ability also would worked immeadiately since then

 

[DeletedUser5180]

i'm pretty sure that a ranger / rogue combo had immediate hiding ability and assumed jaeger would be the same.?

 

[DeletedUser96901]

When was the last time you tested that Test Ament? The MG/AAV was fixed on the 1.35 update, and I believe the stealth ability also would worked immeadiately since then

don't know

if it is changed then I take it back

i'm pretty sure that a ranger / rogue combo had immediate hiding ability and assumed jaeger would be the same.?

ok

sorry for bringing that old issue and not knowing it has been changed

 

[DeletedUser7719]

i'm pretty sure that a ranger / rogue combo had immediate hiding ability and assumed jaeger would be the same.?

If a rogue transformed into those units prior to the 1.35 update, it would take a turn before they inherit any special abilities. Since the contact ability not taking affect immediately was fixed on the 1.35 update, I believe this follows the same bug and now should work for any units with special abilities

 

[DeletedUser6065]

Beat me to it.
. . . mk

 

[Puablo]

A rogue is a hidden unit, so if the hidden unit is an AAV, it will act like an AAV once it's identity is revealed and thus retaliate on the same turn

So then, if the Rogue 'knows' that it is an AAV (in this case taking the only possible form available), why then does it not take its moves as an AAV. All similar types of army unit move one after each other, and yes this could alternate with the other side! What I mean is, I have multiple units in defense, choppers move first etc, but this could be split between attack & defense choppers moving. If my chopper takes out a rogue, it becomes an AAV and retaliates. Now it is the Rogues turn to move (knowing they are AAV's), but NO! They wait until after other types have moved before they take their turn. This now puts my advanced defense units directly in the firing line of the Rogues who transform into AAVs when hit and retaliate. They have the best of both worlds, a further advantage over the defenders. I hope you understand where I'm coming from?

 

[DeletedUser2989]

So then, if the Rogue 'knows' that it is an AAV (in this case taking the only possible form available), why then does it not take its moves as an AAV. All similar types of army unit move one after each other, and yes this could alternate with the other side! What I mean is, I have multiple units in defense, choppers move first etc, but this could be split between attack & defense choppers moving. If my chopper takes out a rogue, it becomes an AAV and retaliates. Now it is the Rogues turn to move (knowing they are AAV's), but NO! They wait until after other types have moved before they take their turn. This now puts my advanced defense units directly in the firing line of the Rogues who transform into AAVs when hit and retaliate. They have the best of both worlds, a further advantage over the defenders. I hope you understand where I'm coming from?

The answer to the movement part is because it would be a "giveaway" if it moved faster than any other rogues (even though in your example there is only 1 thing it can become). The problem is that they have to be consistent regardless of the situation they find themselves in. If they made the assumption they were this or that from the start and there was an army of 1 AAV and 1 Chopper plus 6 Rogues you'd know which rogues were which as they'd move with their respective unit types (and thus not very secret).

The rogues are a tricky unit which need a set of rules while they are rogues regardless of the situation they find themselves in. It'd be far harder to use them if the rules changed depending on the army you placed them in.

 

[DeletedUser12778]

The answer to the movement part is because it would be a "giveaway" if it moved faster than any other rogues (even though in your example there is only 1 thing it can become). The problem is that they have to be consistent regardless of the situation they find themselves in. If they made the assumption they were this or that from the start and there was an army of 1 AAV and 1 Chopper plus 6 Rogues you'd know which rogues were which as they'd move with their respective unit types (and thus not very secret).

The rogues are a tricky unit which need a set of rules while they are rogues regardless of the situation they find themselves in. It'd be far harder to use them if the rules changed depending on the army you placed them in.

Has Tankovy said, i also would like to add that the rogues transformation are random depending of units you have alive at moment it is hit so behaving like one unit is impossible

So if the rogues behaved like the possible transformation you killed the AAV they would behave like nothing

But if you guys have problems against that type of attacking army why not using something to counter it? MA would hit between 2-4 causing a lots of damage, also if you mix MA with AT

 

[DeletedUser15986]

This now puts my advanced defense units directly in the firing line of the Rogues who transform into AAVs when hit and retaliate. They have the best of both worlds, a further advantage over the defenders. I hope you understand where I'm coming from?

The problem isn't so much the rogues, it's the fact that neighourhood PvP is designed to allow the attacker to beat a defender of similar strength, and have a decent chance against higher level players. Rogues are effective against defenders by design in that the AI targets them first, which I think is a good thing because if the town-defense AI was as sensible as the later-era continent maps then there'd be a huge outcry from people who use rogues as part of an attacking army. (The higher the age of the defender, the more and more useless the rogues would become. See the continent examples later as to why.)

Odds of a 1 Unit + 7 Rogues attack working, based on my experience?
Against a neighbour of -1/-2 levels, 100%, with maybe 1-2 damaged units for 1-2 points apiece. (I'll often get through with no damage.)
Against a neighbour of =/+1 level, 100%, with maybe 1 lost unit plus damage to others.
Against a neighbour of +2/3 Levels, 80%, with maybe 2-3 lost units/level.

That said, 8 CE Tanks are almost guaranteed to take out at least 2-3 units thanks to the limited damage they take, so they are a bit expensive to attack. (High level GBs will also usually help both sides, and a mass of Watchfires will also lead to more casualties for the attacker - sometimes enough to repel the attack.)


I can only assume that this effectiveness in the neighbourhood is to counter the opposite fact that rogues are nigh-on useless on the later continent maps. They've got no range, are normally ignored, and take 3 turns to get to the other side of the board post PE - more if there's swamp or barbed wire around. During which time your non-rogue units are either hanging back and taking a pounding from longer ranged stuff who ignore the rogues, advancing and taking a pounding from everything ignoring the rogues, or one rogue gets targetted until it's dead (three hits usually) and the next one starts putting up their little Wile E. Coyote umbrella.

Even when they do get there they aren't really effective given the stats for ME+ units. 100 Attack is great when the other units have a reasonably low defense in comparison, but ME and above have significant defensive power (even without a bonus) so Rogues no longer do significant damage. Instead they make a laughable little stabby motion, hit for maybe 4HP, and then usually get a high velocity round to the face in return. (And then shot repeatedly until dead.)

Odds of a 1 CE Unit + 7R attack succeeding on the new continents?
Against CE Units: 0%
Against PME units: 5%, with 1 unit left.
Against ME units: 10%, with heavy damage
Against PE Units: 20%, with moderate damage

I'd say each age you are ahead of the defending units in the prior ages gives you a 10% bump to the above, so you need to be at least 3 ages ahead of the map units to be reasonably confident of winning with a 1+7 setup, and even then you are going to lose at least 1-2 units.

Now that I've reached CE I've found that all I use rogues for now is neighbourhood battles, where they still absorb hits whilst they run madly across the battlefield to get in place for an effective counterattack, or to save the impact from maybe 1 hit on a map sector. If the neighbourhoods started treating rogues as the maps, I'd stop playing PvP.

 

[DeletedUser12778]

maybe if he uses 5-6 CE tanks and 2-3 rogues for defense that will give time for the rogues get shot and increasing the damage he causes to the attacker

 

[DeletedUser14394]

maybe if he uses 5-6 CE tanks and 2-3 rogues for defense that will give time for the rogues get shot and increasing the damage he causes to the attacker

Pretty simple, the attacker will ignore the roghues and targets to defeat the tanks, also it's a big advantage for attacker, coz there are only 6 tanks there when comparing with 8 tanks. Here the defender is losing two attacks in his every turn making it easy for the attacker to win without losing any unit. But mostly few (including me) dont would want to kill the roghues after killing other units coz it'll give only less battle points. I've even fought many fights against 6 tanks + 2 roghues, I didn't lost a single unit even though I transformed those two roghues into tanks (Since it's manual, so you can plant the units accordingly so that tranforming the roghues wont cause harm to you).

But those 6 tanks + 2 roghues will be really helpful when placed in GvG sectors as defense. If the enemy is rushing by doing auto, he'll suffer much..

 

[DeletedUser653]

I have just noticed that the Rogue changes character - then retaliates when it is not its turn!
.......... But in war if you shot at a soldier and he dies, then that is it - he does not suddenly become a tank and shoot back........

if an injured rogue is hit (you do use injured rogues when shirt) and the damage is enough to kill it then it does indeed die and will not fire back. But if the damage is only a scratch then it does manage to get a shot back at you.

 

[DeletedUser12778]

Pretty simple, the attacker will ignore the roghues and targets to defeat the tanks, also it's a big advantage for attacker, coz there are only 6 tanks there when comparing with 8 tanks. Here the defender is losing two attacks in his every turn making it easy for the attacker to win without losing any unit. But mostly few (including me) dont would want to kill the roghues after killing other units coz it'll give only less battle points. I've even fought many fights against 6 tanks + 2 roghues, I didn't lost a single unit even though I transformed those two roghues into tanks (Since it's manual, so you can plant the units accordingly so that tranforming the roghues wont cause harm to you).

But those 6 tanks + 2 roghues will be really helpful when placed in GvG sectors as defense. If the enemy is rushing by doing auto, he'll suffer much..

Got it, thanks for the advice

 

[DeletedUser]

Better question is. Why isnt our city defense not using the same code as the map defense? ( the AI goes after the real unit before the rogues