• Dear forum reader,
    To actively participate in our forum discussions or to start your own threads, in addition to your game account you need a forum account. You can
    REGISTER HERE!
    Please ensure a translation in to English is provided if your post is not in English and to respect your fellow players when posting.
  • We are looking for you!
    Always wanted to join our Support or Forum Team? We are looking for enthusiastic moderators!
    Take a look at our recruitment page for more information and how you can apply:
    Apply
  • Forum Contests

    Don't forget to check out the current contests here.

Implemented: Defensive Great Buildings

falcon93

A picture says more than a thousand words...

7.png

(Attacker: +80%, Defender: +62%)

This should be enough evidence that it is to easy to breach a defense. As I've said earlier, it doesn't matter that the defender has 200% defensive boost. The attack value is unchanged, resulting in the defending units beeing able to take more damage, but here's the problem: They can't do any serius damage back!

For what use is it to be able to withstand more damage if they can't damage enough to make any use of the extra time the defensive boost gives them? That is why i suggested that defending units should have some bonus to their attack aswell.

So, please:

Either make defensive great buildings (not watchfires) to boost both attack and defense

OR

Make offensive great buildings (Zeus, Aachens, Castel del Monte) to boost attack for both your attacking and defending army
and
Make defensive great building (Cathedral of St. Basil, Deal Castle) to boost defense for both your attacking and defending army.
 

DeletedUser4202

Either of those idéa would be a welcoming sight for my eyes. An attack boost for those units defending is what is needed if only to make it more worthwhile to defend your city.

Even with the great changes with the better ai the defence could use some tweaking. Cause even I feel that defences still are way to easy to break, even without a big attack boost to my attacking army.

As of right now I think some just happen to get scared of the ai changes that they gave up without even trying. You only have to use a little more planning to win.
 

DeletedUser7719

You're looking at it wrong. A 80% attack and defense would only be fair with a 160% defense... (two GBs at level 8)
 

falcon93

You're looking at it wrong. A 80% attack and defense would only be fair with a 160% defense... (two GBs at level 8)
No, I know that 80% offensive boost theoretically equals to 160% defensive boost. Let's take this example a bit further:

90% offensive boost = 180% defensive boost
100% offensive boost = 200% defensive boost
120% offensive boost = 240% defensive boost
140% offensive boost = 280% defensive boost
150% offensive boost = 300% defensive boost

You see the problem here? There's actually 2 problems here...

1) The defensive boost is currently limited to 200%, that theoretically equals to 100% offensive boost, but the offensive boost is currently limited to 150%. That means that the attacker gets a 50% offensive advantage, apart from already having an advantage to the AI. Note that I'm not counting in watchfires here as not all players got those and new players wont be able to get them either.

2) As I stated in my earlier post, having only a defensive boost isn't for much help. Sure the defending units can take more damage, but that is not for any use when they cant deliver any damage in return.

This is why it's currently unbalanced.

falcon93 said:
So, please:

Either make defensive great buildings (not watchfires) to boost both attack and defense

OR

Make offensive great buildings (Zeus, Aachens, Castel del Monte) to boost attack for both your attacking and defending army
and
Make defensive great building (Cathedral of St. Basil, Deal Castle) to boost defense for both your attacking and defending army.
 

DeletedUser7719

Maybe there will be a defensive GB in the later age. We don't know, do we?
 

GrossEyeEh

"Either make defensive great buildings (not watchfires) to boost both attack and defense"

I invested 3 weeks of my time accumulating watchfires. Others spent a lot of time putting forge points in GBs. What makes their efforts any more valuable than mine?

I agree that the extra defense is proving to be absolutely useless without an increase in the defenders ability to hit back but I say my watchfire powered units should get boosted as much as your GB powered units.
 

falcon93

Maybe there will be a defensive GB in the later age. We don't know, do we?
Even if there will be one more defensive building in later ages the problem still remains; it doesn't matter if you have 500% in defensive boost, but your units will still have the ordinary attack value. This means that the defending units wont be able to damage the attacking units. I'll give you an example:

Let's say that 8 imperial guards attacks 8 great sword warriors. This will go perfectly fine, but lets turn it arround. 8 great sword warriors attack 8 imperial guards. The great sword warriors will win, do you know why? Becouse even if the imperial guads have a bonus against light units, they are not able to hit back as hard as the great swords warriors do. I've been in this situation in many battles. In attack, my imperial guards does 5-7 damage to a great sword warrior, but when my imperial guards are defending, they only does 1-3 damage to a great sword warrior.



"Either make defensive great buildings (not watchfires) to boost both attack and defense"

I invested 3 weeks of my time accumulating watchfires. Others spent a lot of time putting forge points in GBs. What makes their efforts any more valuable than mine?

I agree that the extra defense is proving to be absolutely useless without an increase in the defenders ability to hit back but I say my watchfire powered units should get boosted as much as your GB powered units.
I'm absolutely not saying that some efforts are more valuable than others :) The reason I excluded watchfires is becouse some players have like 50 of them (or more), that would result in a bonus of 200% in attack and defense from only the watchfires, together with GBs that would result in 400% bonus to attack and defense. Impenetrable defese :)
 

DeletedUser7719

Maybe there is a reason why the devs let this bonus happen only for the defensive army. We should keep it like that...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

falcon93

There is a reason why the devs let this bonus happen only for the defensive army. We should keep it like that...
Can we get a confirmation from any developer or moderator on this? Becouse if something is planned, I agree that we can wait and see what they've planned. But something tells me the opposite :(
 

DeletedUser8813

Well maybe they could let us trade in the duplicate bps for a small % att boost on our gbs per bp..now that would be a good use for them
 

Martynius

A picture says more than a thousand words...

View attachment 3655

(Attacker: +80%, Defender: +62%)

This should be enough evidence that it is to easy to breach a defense.
It shows that you can breech the defence but it doesn't show that there is a problem with the defensive GBs. I would more put it down to the new AI is particularly bad at managing short range (who like to sit on a mountain out of firing range), heavy infantry (who like to sit next to the short range - also well away from any combat) and, quite often, light infantry (who, if there is nothing in range, will sometimes just sit in the trees rather than closing for a fight).

Your 3 long range units might have done most of the damage and there may have been hardly any melee at all (which I wouldn't be surprised about if this was the case).

Add to that, you have 80% attack bonus and to counter that you would hope that the defender had 160% defensive bonus - but instead they had less than half that; so I'm not surprised you beat their army with very few losses.

Maybe there is a reason why the devs let this bonus happen only for the defensive army. We should keep it like that...
In my opinion, it is a balance reason - if you give a bonus to attack and defense for defensive GBs then it becomes very difficult for players without a GB to attack players who do have them as the defender's damage will quickly overwhelm you. With just a defensive bonus then the damage dealt to you is the same whatever quantity of defensive GB levels there are - it just takes you a bit longer to kill their troops and so you have to use appropriate tactics to mitigate for a longer battle but at least it is possible to change tactics and to have a chance at beating defenders.

Well maybe they could let us trade in the duplicate bps for a small % att boost on our gbs per bp..now that would be a good use for them
That's an awful idea - I would be trading in several hundred duplicate BPs and would immediately have a practically unbeatable army and what is worse is that I would be getting more and more duplicates over time (since I now have BPs for every GB so any I get from now on are just duplicates).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

falcon93

It shows that you can breech the defence but it doesn't show that there is a problem with the defensive GBs. I would more put it down to the new AI is particularly bad at managing short range (who like to sit on a mountain out of firing range), heavy infantry (who like to sit next to the short range - also well away from any combat) and, quite often, light infantry (who, if there is nothing in range, will sometimes just sit in the trees rather than closing for a fight).

Your 3 long range units might have done most of the damage and there may have been hardly any melee at all (which I wouldn't be surprised about if this was the case).

Add to that, you have 80% attack bonus and to counter that you would hope that the defender had 160% defensive bonus - but instead they had less than half that; so I'm not surprised you beat their army with very few losses.
Actually there where some melee combat, thats how one of my unit got damaged 2 points. The problem here was that when the defending units got about 50% damaged, they could only damage my units between 0-1, where it clearly was a bigger chance of damaging 0 than 1. What I'm trying to point out here is that even if the defender would have 300% defensive bonus, the battle result would have been mostly the same. The reason is that the defending units simply cant deliver any serius damage, so it doesn't matter how long it takes for me to kill them.


In my opinion, it is a balance reason - if you give a bonus to attack and defense for defensive GBs then it becomes very difficult for players without a GB to attack players who do have them as the defender's damage will quickly overwhelm you. With just a defensive bonus then the damage dealt to you is the same whatever quantity of defensive GB levels there are - it just takes you a bit longer to kill their troops and so you have to use appropriate tactics to mitigate for a longer battle but at least it is possible to change tactics and to have a chance at beating defenders.
Well first of all, if a player with no offensive bonus at all should be able to successfully attack a player with defensive GBs, what is then the purpose to have defensive GBs?

Secondly, it is still possible to attack someone who has a slightly higher bonus. For instance, the bonus area from LMA has +20% boost to both attack and defense, and at the same time having units from CA guarding these provinces.

This means that if the attacker would have all 3 offensive GBs on level 10 and the defender would have all 2 defensive GBs on level 10, while the defending bonus would boost both attack and defense, the difference would be +50% attack and defense for the defender. While I agree that this kind of defense can be slightly too hard to breach, I instead suggested this:

Make the offensive GBs to boost only attack in both attack and defense.
Make the defensive GBs to boost only defense in both attack and defense.

For instance, this would mean that a Statue of Zeus on level 4 would give a +20% boost to only attack when attacking and defending.
And, Deal Castle on level 4 would give a +40% boost to only defense when attacking and defending.

This would be perfectly balanced for both the attacker and defender as both players would be able to reach a maximum of 150% offensive boost and 200% defensive boost :)
 

DeletedUser2973

I too agree defending units need an attack bonus even just giving them a 25% boost each attack gb that would be 75% between the 3 gb.s would help but it has been mentioned before and falls on deaf ears
 

mungiu

A +1 to this

since it starts to become evident which units are more profitable to use when in defense... I mean it will soon be clear that everybody has to use these units to defend... and these units to attack. And we don't want that do we? Things will become robotic.
 

DeletedUser8793

-1 to this...

all players can see the resultus of the IA Bonus Provinces with +75 Attack/Defence Bonus
and whats if u fight against +75% Attack Bonus and 200% Defence Bonus?

You lose min. 6 Units for each fight... I can't understand thats some ppl. think its funny to kill all the time PvP and fights in this game.
 

falcon93

-1 to this...

all players can see the resultus of the IA Bonus Provinces with +75 Attack/Defence Bonus
and whats if u fight against +75% Attack Bonus and 200% Defence Bonus?

You lose min. 6 Units for each fight... I can't understand thats some ppl. think its funny to kill all the time PvP and fights in this game.
So, you're actually complaining that people that has worked very hard* on their GBs (3 ½ finished military GBs) would be able to hold off some attacks? Seriusly, what is the purpose of GBs of they're not going to help you anyways??? :confused:

* = +75% attack and +200% defense would by this idea represent, for instance; Zeus level 10 + Aachens level 5 + Cathedral of St. Basil level 10 + Deal Castle level 10. This is 3 and a half finished GBs!

EDIT: Keep in mind that the attacker will also have an offensive and defensive boost. If the attacker seriusly does not have any bonus at all, or very little, should he seriusly be able to go through a player with 3 ½ finished GBs? I'm questioning this as I'm really starting to ask myself why we have military GBs if it's going to work the way you propose = "attack everyone, every day, without losses"...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser5904

I currently have 300% defense on my main account on Greifental and 270% defense on my account on Beta. On Greifental I am 3 months done with tech, full INDA defense and the only person(s) in my hood who even try to break me anymore have 135% and 150% attackers. And yeah, they break me but they take anywhere from 2-5 losses per attack, and that's primarily due to the fact that I just don't care enough to switch up my army daily. If I did, they would likely be backing out half the time and losing most if they do break me. Combine that with the fact I collect on 24 hour cycle and can count on one hand the number of times my town hasn't been fully motivated by collection time they won't be able to plunder me to help offset their losses.

You can eventually make your town virtually unpoachable to all but the top 1% of fighters on the server with the current set up, so I don't see the need to give the defenders attack bonuses too.
 

falcon93

I currently have 300% defense on my main account on Greifental and 270% defense on my account on Beta.
Taking yourself as an example is a really bad idea as not everyone got watchfires, and new players cant get them even if they wanted to. The maximum amount of defense we should count with is 200%, and even that is long way over average. 200% defensive boost corresponds to 100% offensive boost, but, there is 150% offensive boost aviable in the game! You see the problem here? And this is not the whole problem, the attacker will always have an advantage over the defender becouse of the AI. I've had enough battles to know what I'm talking about.

Apart from that, I'm really wondering why so many players are afraid of putting the bonuses on an equal level for both the attacker and defender? As stated in the new updated suggestion, Offensive & Defensive Great Buildings, this will offer a perfect balance between the attacker and defender.

So I need to ask you who give this idea a -1, what are you afraid about? Battling an equal strong army? I personally think that's much more fun than doing those boring battles where you dont even have to think. This is a strategy game!

As said, this is the old suggestion, please read and discuss the new version here:

Offensive & Defensive Great Buildings
 

DeletedUser5904

LOL, I am not afraid of battling anyone...on any terms. My point is that we don't need any increase to the offensive stats of defensive great buildings, in effect changing buildings that have been in the game going on 9 months and buildings people have adjusted their play style for, in order to balance things. I would think it would be easier with a pending new era coming down the pike to just add the third defensive great building with it's release to balance things out. And from there in order to keep it balanced, don't release any content that offers a boost to one side without releasing content that offers a boost to it's counterpart.
 

DeletedUser10205

It is a ridiculous imbalance in any strategy war-game to have units that have a huge defence but no retaliation ability, they just sit there slowly taking damage and due to the attacker having a huge defence as well as attack ability they sustain no damage and slowly kill off the defenders units one by one till they win without a single unit lost or even a unit damaged in some cases.