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What is all this stuff about 'fair trades'?

Vesiger

Monarch
The most sought-after resource is not coins, nor supplies, nor even goods. It is space. People will squander coins and supplies and sometimes even goods but they work hours to make every last square count.

Someone producing goods out of a 16-square building is not producing goods at the same cost as someone producing goods out of a 6 or 9-square building. If the goods were freely interchangeable across an age (as you suggest) then nobody in their right mind would bother with a goods building taking 16 squares instead of taking 9 squares.

You might find this useful:
https://www.forgeinfo.com/?l=tools&s=fairtrade

It's a 'fair trade calculator' that's supposed to reflect the real relative cost of producing goods for different ages (which ceases to be a neat 2:1 after a certain stage of progression).
Finding anyone who will agree to abide by it might be trickier, though...
 

DeletedUser110195

What confuses me is that 'communist' is apparently regarded as an insult that needs to be disclaimed at all costs; the principle of communism is "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities", which is pretty much what goes on in any healthy guild (or family, or community)...
It has more to do with evil dictators taking over societies that made a move to communism and then corrupted them, funneling all the resources to themselves rather than distributing according to ones needs, as well as attempting conquest to gain more resources for themselves. To our ever-lasting shame we have the inane motto 'In god we trust' on our money here, thanks to what the likes of stalin did with communism.
 

DeletedUser110195

You might find this useful:
https://www.forgeinfo.com/?l=tools&s=fairtrade

It's a 'fair trade calculator' that's supposed to reflect the real relative cost of producing goods for different ages (which ceases to be a neat 2:1 after a certain stage of progression).
Finding anyone who will agree to abide by it might be trickier, though...
Yea, from modern up the cost changes, it's no longer the cost of goods from one building, but two, in order to produce current goods, and at end game it increases even further where you have the cost of 3 buildings to produce current goods.
 

DeletedUser108047

we can argue in circles about the 'absolute' cost of producing goods... but the reality is that:
  • fair is a personal and relative value; what I think is fair and you think is fair is potentially different and both of us will be right so long as we don't try and impose our values on each other as absolutes.
  • guilds use fair trade rules to keep things simple and reduce 'friction' between members to ensure a common goal
  • fair trade rules within guilds lead to better market liquidity and more trading
  • the cost of the goods is potentially irrelevant when you need something else. I will always pay more to my guild mates and friends to encourage a trade I initiated and need...but I wouldn't, at least a first instance, put it onto the open market to be taken by anyone as I would prefer the beneficial trade to be taken into account down the track by the guild or a friend. Again what I would pay is relative to what I need.
  • guild rules are different guild to guild. Its not 'communist' - or a 'dictatorship' - the rules are there when someone applies to join - if you don't want my rules - don't join my guild... There are plenty of guilds and plenty of servers to choose from
To take this further - I will always accept an unfair trade from a guild member seeking to build a guild GB as they return guild benefits which ultimately lead to levelling up and a reduced cost of healing, building; increased treasury so we can fight more and increased defence in GvG - benefits I couldn't have without guild members prepared to commit space in their city to guild buildings.
 

DeletedUser99692

Regardless of which argument is put forward those that disagree will always find a counter to justify their point of view.
Fact you cannot post trades ratios that exceed 2 for 1 the system will not allow it.
Fact you cannot determine which trades are posted on the open market if posted by a guild member
Fact that if you accept to join a guild who states in their requirements Fair trade only you cannot complain if they boot you for breaking that rule

Suggestion ask questions before you join a guild so they know what to to expect when they accept you or you know what to expect when you join them. Capitalism or Communism there are guilds that support both views take the time to find one that suits your view of the game but don't be surprised if you don't progress through the game as quickly as you might do if you conform to general perceptions of Fair Trade.
 

Galladhorn

Monarch
Whatever the politcal system, FoE is a game.

One can plunder freely, yes even the latest GB enhcances the action of plundering - So I do not understand why the Goods in the Market can not be traded freely with no or little restrictions - at least the current Fair Trade Ratios are immensly narrow.

And as if the Orichlacum and Promethium goods are not expensive enough to gather and can not be traded, then on top the latets tech Goods always suffers from less demand overall. And there are plenty of other irregularietes (or non statics) as already mentioned above in the htread, different sizes of production buildings, different demands that also depends on each era´s Units buildings etc. which is prefereble etc.

Certainly all goods are not equal all the time and the change in player teching plays a role to the demands. In that way FoE is in fact a pretty awesome slightly chaotic reflection of real world markets - But on the open World Markets there is no restictions really. if suddenly a new technology demands a certain Good, then the prices rize and vice versa.

Goods prizes vary in response to offer and demand and so should the FoE Market.

There is an idea in the "Forwarded" idea forum of excluding trades from particular players, if implemented that would deal with deal spammers pretty fast.
 

DeletedUser110195

The demand in this game doesn't change, everyone needs all the same amount of everything to research every tech, the same amount to build any GB, the same amount for any quest. In the real world, we would know why there was a goods shortage, in this game, just because something isn't available, doesn't mean there's a shortage, the suppliers may simply have no need of anything at that moment, and therein lies a counterpoint to the idea that goods produced in a larger building are worth more: We all need exactly the same amount of everything, getting a goods boost, the building to use it being small, you're not advantaged by this, you may produce the same amount as someone who has a larger building, but if you go for more buildings, this costs you additional house space, supplies space, happiness space and for what? Goods that no one will need? All building 6 paper mills in the space needed for 2 tar kilns does is create a lot of unused paper. It's evident just by looking at my guild's treasury...colonial goods, are all 800....800....800...800....paper....8000. All that excess amounts to nothing, there's nothing to use it on, because you need equal amounts of everything else.
 
All building 6 paper mills in the space needed for 2 tar kilns does is create a lot of unused paper. It's evident just by looking at my guild's treasury...colonial goods, are all 800....800....800...800....paper....8000. All that excess amounts to nothing, there's nothing to use it on, because you need equal amounts of everything else.
It is interesting that your major defence for equality of goods in an age leads you to point out that some goods have less value. If all that paper had equal value, it could be traded equally with any other Colonial Age goods. But it can't because - as you point out - not all goods have equal value, and in this example it is precisely because paper mills are small compared to other contemporary goods buildings.
 

DeletedUser110195

It is interesting that your major defence for equality of goods in an age leads you to point out that some goods have less value. If all that paper had equal value, it could be traded equally with any other Colonial Age goods. But it can't because - as you point out - not all goods have equal value, and in this example it is precisely because paper mills are small compared to other contemporary goods buildings.
No good has any more value than others, producing more just because you can fit extra buildings in does nothing for you, because as I also stated in my previous comment, that requires you to use up more support space for those buildings. It doesn't matter how much paper I have, if no one has wire, coffee or porcelain for trade, I get nothing for it, and trading nothing but paper leads to anyone who doesn't have that boost to not needing it, while you're stuck with a resource you can't sell. So even if I can fit more paper mills in, it's pointless to do so. The only conceivable use for all that excess would be to trade to that 1 for 10 merchant, and you're better off just building an even number of paper mill and whatever else you get.
 

DeletedUser99692

The balance of goods is not dictated by the size of the building but by the deposits that players find on the maps. There will be times in the game that a good is in high demand for the simple reason that the bulk of current players needing that good have not received that resource on the continent map. The game is set up to drive us to exchange goods and use social interactions to progress. Try playing an insular self sufficient game with no friends, no guild, its not impossible but it is very very difficult. Like real life the game has social rules and values and it is a lot easier to play if you conform to them.
 
The balance of goods is not dictated by the size of the building but by the deposits that players find on the maps. There will be times in the game that a good is in high demand for the simple reason that the bulk of current players needing that good have not received that resource on the continent map. The game is set up to drive us to exchange goods and use social interactions to progress. Try playing an insular self sufficient game with no friends, no guild, its not impossible but it is very very difficult. Like real life the game has social rules and values and it is a lot easier to play if you conform to them.
To most of this, I am thinking, "yes but so what?"

However, I have to disagree with the statement that "The balance of goods is ... dictated by ... the deposits that players find on the maps." The balance of goods deposits (e.g. quartz) is dictated by the deposists that players find on the Maps. The balance of goods (e.g. Glass) is dictated by the number of players who make the relevant production building.

Taking HMA as an example, someone with a ropery needs, to start with:
  • 6 squares for the production building
  • (460/111) x8 = 33 squares for the population (densest standard housing, clapboard)
  • (460/430) x9 = 10 squares for the happiness for the population
  • Total 49 squares.
By comparison, someone with a brickworks needs, to start with:
  • 12 squares for the production building
  • (460/111) x8 = 33 squares for the population (densest standard housing, clapboard)
  • (460/430) x9 = 10 squares for the happiness for the population
  • Total 55 squares.
To produce 1 rope is the same nett cost as producing 1 brick, so for each day's production, the same space is needed except for the ongoing 6 squares difference. Those six squares as dwelling (standard housing, clapboard) not only help to pay for the daily output of goods but can add their population to production of supplies, providing about 140% of the needs for a contemporary supplies building. The output of 6 squares of dwelling (1½ clapboards) can be as high as 1080 coins every day. Or, to put it another way, for every glass that can be produced, someone can produce 1 rope and 36 coins and other benefits.

I hope that step-by-step illustrates why not all goods cost the same, regardless of whether anyone demands that other people under their control treat them as though they do or not.

In the laws of supply and demand, something that costs less to produce (in nett terms) but sells for the same, will be provided in greater quantity, as Augustavian pointed out happens in the game, in one of his posts. I have little doubt that the designers of the game, in deciding to create some goods buildings smaller than others, were well aware that they would be creating a greater production of some goods, which apparently is not reflected by demand.
 

DeletedUser99692

The size of the building is irrelevant. I have played through several worlds and all ages. In one world silk was a rare as hens teeth to get a hold of Silk is a 3x3 building and in an 80 strong guild we could not get enough of it. In another world it was gunpowder. In some worlds you can't give marble or paper away in others its wire and porcelain. Yes all five goods resources are randomly distributed and like everything else in this game that is random each player starting in a new world is a unique event no one says well the last player got this so the next one will get that just to keep things balanced. FoE does not and never has worked that way :lol:
 

DeletedUser109296

The demand in this game doesn't change, everyone needs all the same amount of everything to research every tech, the same amount to build any GB, the same amount for any quest. In the real world, we would know why there was a goods shortage, in this game, just because something isn't available, doesn't mean there's a shortage, the suppliers may simply have no need of anything at that moment, and therein lies a counterpoint to the idea that goods produced in a larger building are worth more: We all need exactly the same amount of everything, getting a goods boost, the building to use it being small, you're not advantaged by this, you may produce the same amount as someone who has a larger building, but if you go for more buildings, this costs you additional house space, supplies space, happiness space and for what? Goods that no one will need? All building 6 paper mills in the space needed for 2 tar kilns does is create a lot of unused paper. It's evident just by looking at my guild's treasury...colonial goods, are all 800....800....800...800....paper....8000. All that excess amounts to nothing, there's nothing to use it on, because you need equal amounts of everything else.
You need someone in your guild to coordinate goods production. Even then it won't be a perfect balance. In my 10 worlds I did a spreadsheet on which deposits I had in which worlds. In BA, 5 had one deposit & then there were 2 deposits that I had in only 2 worlds. :( The same thing happens in a guild. That is why some large guilds work together with a traveling trader going from one guild to another & back.
 

dimondus

Captain
fair is a personal and relative value; what I think is fair and you think is fair is potentially different and both of us will be right so long as we don't try and impose our values on each other as absolutes.
That leads to conclusion that term "fair trade" used wrong and I would call it "trade with fixed ratio" instead.

Anyway Dane thorson made good overall conclusion and as someone else said game engine does not allow trade ratio more that 2:1 or 1:2. So instead of proposing free market you should propose to increase ratio to at least 4:1 BUT this suddenly could lead to easy pushing exploit so I kind of understand devs decision to limit ratio.

Another simple reason for fixed trade ratio is - people just lazy (me included) and don't want to check 3rd party sites/calculators for true goods value every time they post new bunch of trades. Also on mobile its even more cumbersome.

And yes, I agree free market would be better if all server/world would be involved (take as an example EVE Online) but when I have 80 neighbors + 50-60 guildies + 100 friends (160 max) that leaves only few choices for trading.
 
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