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Tavern Boosts

  • Thread starter DeletedUser107836
  • Start date

RT30

Private
I think it would be a good addition to the Tavern, to be able to buy a building motivation with Tavern Silver
More importantly is to be able to buy plishing. Lots of ways with the various motivation kits we have for production boosts but no way (currently) to polish.
 

DeletedUser103370

Hahahaha, again with this stupid "this is a strategy game" excuse lol. I don't know what kind of strategy games you guys have played before, but I don't consider cancelling timers as one...
You can cancel half of the features regardless of their type, the other half you can't. It's illogical. Either give the possibility to cancel all kind of features, introducing a unified refund, or drop cancelling all together, in this case you shouldn't be able to cancel anything, like goods buildings etc...
 

DeletedUser108047

-1
you made a decision to buy a benefit.... the benefit has a fixed time period... it is what it is

If there is cancellation then you should also lose the benefit you had accrued

For those saying there should be a refund etc - it is still open to abuse - the longer time periods also have increased % benefits - allowing cancellation would still allow people to access increased benefits in their city at the loss of a nominal currency...
 

DeletedUser103370

-1
you made a decision to buy a benefit.... the benefit has a fixed time period... it is what it is

If there is cancellation then you should also lose the benefit you had accrued

For those saying there should be a refund etc - it is still open to abuse - the longer time periods also have increased % benefits - allowing cancellation would still allow people to access increased benefits in their city at the loss of a nominal currency...

First of all, the system could check that, so it's NOT open to abuse, actually it's dead easy to understand, you used 25% of the boost, you get back 75% of what you paid... Fair, right? No more no less. You pay exactly the same as anyone else...

Second, could you please explain it to me, what's the difference between cancelling for example goods, and cancelling boosts?
Goods have a fixed time period, still you can cancel it right? Why is that?
Let me go further. You start a unit production, you can cancel it right (with a full refund!!)? Why is that?

Let me tell you WHY!
Because there the developers didn't have to fiddle to do the math, how much you need to get back... That is why. Because when you cancel a unit production for example, they just refund you with the FULL AMOUNT! And why do they refund you at all? Well, simply because you don't get anything, you shouldn't pay for anything... Of course with boosts you should only get back the amount you haven't used already.

You say if you cancel you should lose the benefit you had accrued??? WTH? If you only get back the portion of what you invested, which YOU DIDN'T get any benefit for YET, or in other words you have ALREADY PAYED for it, then why on earth you'd have to lose the rest?

Try to open your eyes and look for the big picture. The question in front of you is no less than the uniformity of the game. It's illogical to have half of the features work in a different way than the other half, just because you'd have to deal with some fractions...

There can be only one reason - the way I see it - why they designed it like this, if the devs EXPLICIT goal was to restrict boosts to certain time periods, because this way they wanted to motivate diamond users to spend more... (which fails miserably, explanation below)
Because let's admit, if the Tavern would be highly customizable like cancelling boosts, or setting a custom time period, they would probably get less diamond out of it... At least the way it's designed at the moment. You could play around with one boost at a time instead of paying for a second one in case you need it...

But problem there are multiple scenarios we can choose from.
I give you a really simple idea, the boosts could be exponentially stronger as time goes by. For example if you take a 5 hour boost, it would be considerably weaker in the first hour, than in the fifth, ultimately making it worth to have it run through.
Or for example instead of giving you only a couple of predefined periods, you could simply choose by a slider for how long you want the boost to be active, and pay for it accordingly.
Regarding the diamond sink for example, they could simply "boost the boost", alas making the individual boosts stronger for some diamonds.

In fact if it's thought through properly, they could get much more diamonds out of it. Atm. you can only have a second boost for diamonds, if the time period is fixed and you set it to 24 hours, that in turn means in a 24 hour time period it can only sink 50 diamonds.
Now think about it, if you'd have the ability to cancel, and the diamonds could be used to enhance the effect of any boost at any time, then take this as an example:

I activate supply boost for 24 hours. I enhance it using 50 diamonds, but after I collect my second cycle, in let's say 8 hours, I get attacked by a vicious bloke. Then I realize I don't have enough silver to activate the defender boost, so what do I do? I cancel the supply boost, getting back a hefty portion of the silver I invested. Then I activate the defender boost, and use ANOTHER 50 diamonds to enhance the effect, and I've already spent twice as much as it was possible before...

EVEN more! If you could use multiple boosts instead of being able to use only ONE, and a second with diamonds, then you'd have EVEN more chance to spend those dirty diamonds...

And before you ask, no, you don't need to have a cap on how many boosts you could use at any given time. The reason is simple, there is a natural cap already in the game. The silver coins you can collect daily IS limited, in a day there is a limited number of people who can sit down in your Tavern, so even if you were logged in every minute, every hour of the day, you'd only be able to collect a certain amount. So instead of capping the number of boosts, they could simply adjust the Silver need accordingly, and it's done. I love the simplicity and the feeling of freedom it gives, while still limiting of what you can do in a given time period. Much more clever than saying, "Hey you can activate this for X Y Z amount of time, and another if you pay for us some money..."

There are countless possibilities to choose from, there are other ways to improve diamond usage, and there are certainly other and smarter ways to utilize a fun - and ofc very useful - feature, like the Tavern.
 
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DeletedUser108047

@z78sabjan

Thank you for the condescension and the shouting. It was refreshing and enjoyable although it detracted from the argument you make

I'm still -1 on the idea

Being able to cancel a boost removes or weakens a 'strategic' element - do you use it or not?; can lead to abuse and, potentially renders part of the boost system pointless..

For example - the 24 hour 30% military boost - being able to cancel it early after you have used it to fight in GE/PHP or GvG renders the shorter period boosts useless. They are scaled so you need to decide what level of boost and what time period you need them for. Part of the price of having 30% attack boost for 24 hours is the fact that you can't have a second boost for coin, supply etc without paying diamonds for it.

The proposal means that players with large quantities of silver can regularly even daily purchase the highest value boost, use it for the limited period they want and then cancel it and/or even get a refund. This is unbalanced when compared with new players, less experienced players or players with lower levels of silver, or low levels of friends or on less populated worlds.

As for any argument that the game needs to be internally consistent.... whilst I agree that from a user point of view the interface should be consistent... it does not follow that there cannot be different rules or processes for different elements of the game, different troops, buildings, etc.
 
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DeletedUser103370

@z78sabjan

Thank you for the condescension and the shouting. It was refreshing and enjoyable

I'm still -1 on the idea

Lol, you misunderstood me, I was trying to EMPHASIZE certain points, I often feel the urge to do that when someone presents false info as facts, and I feel it better shows the importance than a simple bold or underlined word.
But thanks for the cynism, appreciate it too :)
 
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DeletedUser103370

@z78sabjan

Being able to cancel a boost removes or weakens a 'strategic' element - do you use it or not?; can lead to abuse and, potentially renders part of the boost system pointless..

For example - the 24 hour 30% military boost - being able to cancel it early after you have used it to fight in GE/PHP or GvG renders the shorter period boosts useless. They are scaled so you need to decide what level of boost and what time period you need them for. Part of the price of having 30% attack boost for 24 hours is the fact that you can't have a second boost for coin, supply etc without paying diamonds for it.

The proposal means that players with large quantities of silver can regularly even daily purchase the highest value boost, use it for the limited period they want and then cancel it and/or even get a refund. This is unbalanced when compared with new players, less experienced players or players with lower levels of silver, or low levels of friends or on less populated worlds.

As for any argument that the game needs to be internally consistent.... whilst I agree that from a user point of view the interface should be consistent... it does not follow that there cannot be different rules or processes for different elements of the game, different troops, buildings, etc.

Ok, let's review what you've said one by one.

You say that being able to cancel the boost would render the shorter period boosts useless.
That would be true, if we use the current system. I explained above in details that there are infinite solutions, we just need creativity. Just another example, if you activate a 24 hour supply boost you get 60%. At this point with the current system, you could exploit cancelling, because you just collect your supplies, then you cancel the boost, you get back the refund, and YES, in this case it's open for abuse. But again, with some creativity it can be circumvented easily. We have 4/12/24 hour boosts. If you cancel it in less than 12 hours, then you get back nothing. After that point you get back the portion it's still haven't used yet. This way you have paid the full amount, there is nothing to abuse, the only thing you'd gain is that you'd be able to enact yet another boost instead of waiting for the whole 24 hour period to run out.

And I cannot stress this enough, this is only one way to do it! As I said I'd let players use as many boosts as they want in parallel, and instead paying 50 diamonds for a second boost, I'd offer them the possibility to enhance the effect of the active boosts by a certain amount, of course this is for diamonds too. And I'm saying this knowing that it wouldn't even be for me, since I only use diamonds for extensions, and I never buy them (just to make it clear that I'm not lobbying for myself), but since it's obvious that diamonds are one of the top priorities of the devs for understandable reasons, this could imo make more profit, while it would give a better experience for players too.

The next one is you state that being able to cancel a boost weakens the strategic element of the game...
That's just plain and simple not true, for many reasons. One is that it's not a strategy, that you activate a boost for a fixed period of time without knowing what's gonna happen to you, maximum an educated guess...
On the contrary, if you have the option to cancel, you have more possibilities how you handle certain situations, which would only strengthen the strategic element of the game, not the other way around. With every and any action that you don't control in the game, and starting without knowing the future circumstances this is the case. A strategy is what you can plan ahead and react accordingly, if you've activated a 24 hour supply boost, you couldn't have known that someone will attack you in the next hour. That is a gamble again.

Then you say this would be unbalanced, because players with large quantities of silver would be able to use more boosts than the less advanced players...
Well, I don't even know what to say to that. You say that like if that's not the same thing with every other single aspect of the game. Like if it's not natural, that a seasoned player who perhaps plays here for years has advantages over a newbie...
Of course they do! Don't tell me that you didn't know about it, that some player have level 100 GBs? You see my highest level of GB is I think 11 :) Now how unfair is that? Unbalanced. No it's not. With hard work I have just the same chances as they did to get to their level. Even with the currently active Tavern, many in my hood has a table with four chairs!! I have already maxed out mine, and I have a full tavern daily roughly twice. This depends on how active I am, how many friends I have, what kind of friends I have, and of course how frequently I sit in theirs... Again, with your logic this is unfair too, because I get about ten times more silvers than those. I say nothing is unfair or unbalanced about it, they have the exact same chance that I do.

One thing I can agree with you, is that just to keep the game consistent, it doesn't mean we couldn't have features that are different.

In short this is one way I could see it working:
  • ability of using any number of boosts (enhance effects with diamond)
  • have different boost levels (for example basic10% / moderate20% / strong30%)
  • ability to choose the time period freely (pay accordingly, ofc. shorter time period costs less)
  • ability to cancel boost for partial refund
This would give you about 20 times more strategy to fiddle with, would be a bigger diamond sink, more exciting to use, and more freedom to suit your play-style, which is mostly depends on how much time you have for the game, and when can you login.
Imo the game is way to fixed in terms of cycles (this is true for nearly all other features too, and it forces players to either miss out on their advancement, or to comply with a very strict routine (which can only be said about hardcore players, and I bet they are the minority).

To give you a sense about this, think about the FP bar. that's a great example of flexibility. Instead of giving you 10 FPs in every 10 hours, it gives them gradually, so you have the chance to login at any time in that 10 hour period to spend them. If it was given in fixed time periods, then you'd be forced to login at very strict time-frames. Sadly this is only true for the FP bar, I'd like to see that concept applied to other features too.

And if you're worried that the Tavern would become OP, worry not, that again could be easily circumvented by adjusting the boost effects to an acceptable level.
 
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DeletedUser110195

I already consider lesser bonuses useless, with the sole exception being extra turn, even 15 minutes is too much for me to burn through all the attempts I'll have on worlds I don't fight encounters....which is every world but my main.

I think any refund for this needs to be based on how long you had the boost active, as you gain immediate benefits of a boost you chose, and I only support a partial refund because it is possible to accidentally activate something.
 

DeletedUser103370

I already consider lesser bonuses useless, with the sole exception being extra turn, even 15 minutes is too much for me to burn through all the attempts I'll have on worlds I don't fight encounters....which is every world but my main.

I think any refund for this needs to be based on how long you had the boost active, as you gain immediate benefits of a boost you chose, and I only support a partial refund because it is possible to accidentally activate something.

Yeah, that's why a refund could only apply after the earlier time-frame expired, so
  • if you activate a 4 hour boost, then you could get a partial refund straight away, depending on the remaining time
  • if you activate a 12 hour boost, then up to 4 hours you get no refund, after that a partial refund depending on the remaining time
  • if you activate a 24 hour boost, then up to 12 hours no refund, after that a partial refund depending on the remaining time
This makes it impossible to abuse. But tbh I'd really like to see a fundamental change in how the tavern works.
 
All my yes to this, getting locked into a tavern bonus that's no longer useful is quite annoying, reaching the end of GE and you need an additional boost to finish those last few fights, well when you do that, now you have this bonus possibly going unused for the rest of the day. If you choose a lesser bonus, it may not be helpful at all.

+1
It seems to me that is the strategy in selecting which boost. Take the greater boost but be tied into it, or take the lesser boost and risk that it might not be enough.

I quite like the way it is structured: there are pros and cons of the choices. It's not enough that there would be no refund - most active players have so much spare silver that cost is never the issue.

-1
(Unusual for me.)
 
Hahahaha, again with this stupid "this is a strategy game" excuse lol. I don't know what kind of strategy games you guys have played before, but I don't consider cancelling timers as one...
You can cancel half of the features regardless of their type, the other half you can't. It's illogical. Either give the possibility to cancel all kind of features, introducing a unified refund, or drop cancelling all together, in this case you shouldn't be able to cancel anything, like goods buildings etc...
In some cases, a cancel option makes sense and if there was no cancellation ability, there would be a need for a confirmation instead, which would be very annoying. For an example, setting up overnight productions: every now and then I will press for the wrong timing and set up a building for a day or two by mistake. I know it as soon as I press and can cancel it and reset it; without cancel, we would have to be asked to confirm every single time.

I think that where there is no confirmation, a cancel is needed. Where there is a strategic decision to be made, which only later game-play might show to be wrong, there should be no cancel but should be a confirmation.
 

DeletedUser103370

In some cases, a cancel option makes sense and if there was no cancellation ability, there would be a need for a confirmation instead, which would be very annoying. For an example, setting up overnight productions: every now and then I will press for the wrong timing and set up a building for a day or two by mistake. I know it as soon as I press and can cancel it and reset it; without cancel, we would have to be asked to confirm every single time.

I think that where there is no confirmation, a cancel is needed. Where there is a strategic decision to be made, which only later game-play might show to be wrong, there should be no cancel but should be a confirmation.

Yeah that's one side of it, it would be dead-easy to implement a checkbox to ask for confirmation next time or not. On the other hand I'd make it possible to cancel everywhere, it's just some features should be changed down to the core to make it viable, but there is no reason not to do it - I guess :) -
 
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