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Forwarded: Newbie plundering thresholds

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DeletedUser

Proposal:
Prevent players from plundering newbies until a threshold is met.

Have you checked the forums for the same or similar idea:
None

Reason:
Players that just got into the game can get 'farmed' by more experienced players, which can make them quit the game out of frustration before they even really get into it.

Details:
When a new player starts the game, they cannot be plundered (they can get attacked) until a certain threshold is met.
For example, after 40 Forge Points have been used, they can be considered developed and into the game mechanics enough to create a defense.
40 comes from: 25 Points needed to create Slinger - 10 you get when you start is only 15 hours of play time, of which they may only have logged into twice.
36 points needed to create Horseman. A lot of researches needed before you can get this, so you should understand mechanics by then.


The newbie can also get to this threshold by creating a second military building.
A second building means they are building a military and thus are ready for battles and the consequences.

Another threshold could be when they reach 3x the 24hour production value of a Hunter in Supplies.
That means that they've been playing for 3 days and should be into the game enough to face every feature.

EDIT: Perhaps just make it a general 'Resources collected' threshold, this way it can include coins too. Or a 4th threshold for coins alone depending on balance issues. - credit to Bloodwyn for pointing out coins abuse

Visual Aids:
None

Balance/Abuse Prevention:
- One abuse would be "don't build military buildings" which would be overwritten by the Forge Points trigger, and vice versa.
- Or someone could just not build military buildings and not spend 40 Forge Points, but in that case the third threshold takes place, to prevent farming of resources by not meeting the other 2 thresholds.
- The last abuse to keep this temporary 'plunder immunity' would be to not play at all.. and I don't really think that counts as abuse.

- L
 
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DeletedUser2029

I think that the most fair threshold would be the conquering of the PvP tower province.
also, you can only be attacked by units of your highest conquered tower,
i.e. LMA player could still attack a newbie but only if
a) newbie has conquered his bronze age tower province (Tyr)
b) only with bronze age units
this should also be a requirement for newbies (you can support other players, but until you have conquered your Tyr tower, you can't attack players from your neighborhood)
 

DeletedUser

Your suggestion is putting too many restrictions and even preventing players from attacking newbies. That is NOT the issue.
Attacking players doesn't cause any kind of penalty whatsoever to the defender, up til the part where they get plundered.
The plunder is the issue I was addressing.

I was suggesting thresholds for when players can get plundered, not attacked.

In addition, your suggestion would create the abuse of being able to not conquer the Tyr Tower at all, before you have a huge army.
In theory you could research Iron Age army units without too much trouble (just a lot of time) without ever conquering the Tyr Tower.
My suggested thresholds prevent that abuse. The exact numbers I suggested can be altered ofcourse, but those 3 thresholds would do, I think.

- L
 

DeletedUser2029

OK then, NO to everything (except the sentiment of the idea)

1. attacking without consequences? what's the point? I thought that the "forced altruism" (in regards to preferred support) was considered abuse
2. your thresholds are completely arbitrary, because 2 spearfighter barracks are more than enough to conquer all BA provinces, so it doesn't matter how much FPs have you spent
3. to conquer Badakus (iron age tower) is a mandatory quest, to get to iron age units it takes around 8 days (if you add all BA FPs plus up to 40 to research and train IA units)
That means that players who quit without conquering Tyr would not have the excuse that they were overplundered (and after 0.18 patch lower age units are practically useless against higher age units, for the majority of players this idea aims to "help")
 

DeletedUser

You haven't been reading my point well enough I think.

1. attacking without consequences? what's the point? I thought that the "forced altruism" (in regards to preferred support) was considered abuse
Reason:
Players that just got into the game can get 'farmed' by more experienced players, which can make them quit the game out of frustration before they even really get into it.
Secondly, the point is Points. You still get 240 points if you really want them. You just can't plunder the newbies that JUST started their account.


2. your thresholds are completely arbitrary, because 2 spearfighter barracks are more than enough to conquer all BA provinces, so it doesn't matter how much FPs have you spent
You misunderstood. All 3 thresholds are in effect. If ANY is met by the newbie, the 'plunder immunity' is nullified and you can plunder the newbie.

I did state:
The newbie can also get to this threshold by creating a second military building.
A second building means they are building a military and thus are ready for battles and the consequences.


3. to conquer Badakus (iron age tower) is a mandatory quest, to get to iron age units it takes around 8 days (if you add all BA FPs plus up to 40 to research and train IA units)
That means that players who quit without conquering Tyr would not have the excuse that they were overplundered (and after 0.18 patch lower age units are practically useless against higher age units, for the majority of players this idea aims to "help")
I don't really get what you're saying here, but again, 40 Forge Points limit starting from a fresh account will get you up to Horseman research, which should be far enough in progression to face plunders.

Also, there are no mandatory quests. There are main quests that you cannot skip, but that doesn't mean that you have to complete them. It just means you can't progress in the storyline. You can conquer the entire map without completing a single quest.


So to make it more clear:
Until the thresholds are met, the newbie cannot be plundered, but can be attacked for Battle Points.
This creates a short window for them to play the game without being farmed of their resources by the top players in the neighbourhood.

The thresholds I've mentioned are pretty low, so they will meet them pretty fast.
Each threshold covers another threshold to prevent abuse, so newbies cannot abuse this temporary 'plunder immunity', unless they don't play.

- L
 
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DeletedUser

I think this is a good idea. SImply because at the very beginning of playing this game, you only have a handful of buildings in your town. Worst case scenario, all of them get plundered. You have no income. You cant build a single new thing. Thus you cannot play the game. This would give a little relief and allow new players to get into the game, while still letting the attackers get their points. I mean, thats the whole point of attacking a newbie anyways. Who needs the 6 coins or few supplies after the first few days of playing? Thats not a reward, the points are.

~Mutzena~
 

DeletedUser2029

1. your idea is not intuitive.
first you get attacked, but not plundered, that lulls you into a false sense of security.
then, after you reach you threshold, without any warning, you start getting plundered.
don't you think that that will tick people off even more than the current system?
oh, and checking the main forum for instructions should not be a requirement for playing (and that's the only way people can find out about your threshold)

2. Badakus MUST be conquered to progress on the world map, even if you don't follow the main quest line (hence mandatory)

3. so someone doesn't want to conquer the map, would it be wrong to allow people not to participate in PvP?
you can buy your way through the tech tree with diamonds, you can manufacture all goods in low quantities, all this without the fear of ever being plundered.
being a member of a guild in not mandatory but it makes thing easier. why not make things easier for the players who want to play the hard way?
 

DeletedUser

1. your idea is not intuitive.
first you get attacked, but not plundered, that lulls you into a false sense of security.
then, after you reach you threshold, without any warning, you start getting plundered.
don't you think that that will tick people off even more than the current system?
oh, and checking the main forum for instructions should not be a requirement for playing (and that's the only way people can find out about your threshold)
What's the difference in being plundered from the very start or after you meet a treshold?
Either way it comes without warning. At least with thresholds you can start playing before you're forced to quit.

As for checking the forum, I thought it was pretty self-explanatory that it would be added in the gaming tutorial.


2. Badakus MUST be conquered to progress on the world map, even if you don't follow the main quest line (hence mandatory)
I did not dispute that, I merely disputed that the QUEST to conquer it was mandetory. Because the quest is not.


3. so someone doesn't want to conquer the map, would it be wrong to allow people not to participate in PvP?
you can buy your way through the tech tree with diamonds, you can manufacture all goods in low quantities, all this without the fear of ever being plundered.
being a member of a guild in not mandatory but it makes thing easier. why not make things easier for the players who want to play the hard way?
This argument is invalid in all points.
For conquering the map you need either goods or military. To have either of those;
You need to meet threshold 2, because 4 spearfighters isn't going to cut it.
You need to meet threshold 1, because you'll want more than just spearfighters, huts and hunters for conquering the map.
You need to meet threshold 3 to pay for all of these.
So the moment you are even trying to conquer the map, your plunder immunity nullifies because of the necessities to do it.

To buy your way through the tech tree you need to meet threshold 1 (40 FP) and threshold 3 to pay unlock costs. Thus nullifying the immunity.

- L
 
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DeletedUser2029

nope, I give up.
why did you even bother with the development of the threshold concept, when you could just say:
Hey, let's spare newbies from plundering for 2 days.
Why?
Who cares. Because!

you didn't have to rationalise it.
 

DeletedUser

It's hardly 2 days, and you forget threshold 3 again.
If they are very active players who use 5 minute production all the time, they would meet the 102 supplies (as per my example: 3x 24h hunter production) threshold in just over one hour.
I think if you play this game for 1 hour straight with 5 min productions, you'll get the basic hang of it and should be able to face plunders. Plus if you're that active, your activity balances out the plunders at such an early stage.

Apart from that, threshold 1 states 40 points - 10 that you get from the start = 30 forge points. Which is just over one day for the less active player who needs a bit more time to get the hang of the game due to low activity.

So I think the thresholds are very reasonable and do not give newbies a godly advantage at all.
You made this about the advantage of plunder immunities, but my suggested thresholds take any abuse of that away.
This idea was to let new players get to know the game first. It just creates a small window to let them get a taste of the game before they're bullied away.

- L
 
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DeletedUser

as i said in my thread about this..

'why not only allow plundering if the players are within 1 age of each other?

so for example a player in the EMA could plunder players in the Iron Age but not those in the Bronze Age (and of course could plunder players in his own age or above).'
 

DeletedUser

It would create too much of a restriction.

Some players progress extremely slow. If you're a fast player, it means you can never plunder them.

Also, higher Age players do need goods from lower Ages too.
If you're battle orientated, rather than trading orientated, a big part of your stock will probably depend on razing buildings of any Age to get what you need. :)

- L
 

DeletedUser

Well if you two (PorfirioDiaz and Lodroth) aren't in a heated discussion... :D

First of all, I'm glad to read that somebody addresses the need for helping newbies start out. There have been other proposals in the past, stating similar ideas, however this one seems to be the most plausible if you ask me.

The concept of these thresholds seems to be well thought out, and I must admit that you've convinced me that there is no real option to make such a feature more sufficient.

One thing though: Please add a threshold regarding coins! If this were to be left out, some major abuse could take place (although I'd still find it unlikely). The reason being, that huts give so much gold, that a very active player will first remove them in the EMA. Furthermore the 'lost' research points can all be bought fairly quickly and the player could easily advance through the ages (excluding the need of goods).

It's a +1 from me (if you add my minor point from above)

Regards,
Bloodwyn
 

DeletedUser

I don't see any reason at all why this should not be implemented.

The core aim for Innogames would be to get more players and try to encourage the players to stay. This idea does just that.

1. Players are more likely to carry on playing because they don't feel as if they are being 'hammered' from day one.
2. There can be no abuse from this, just genuinely helping newbies. There is no way to progress the game unless you are ready to attack and to be plundered - as Lodroth has covered all angles of possible 'abuse' with his back up threshold ideas. i.e. hitting any point of the 3 he mentioned.
3. There really is no point at all in plundering the low ranked players when you're a higher ranking player, really. I mean come on, you're in the middle age and you have 100,000 resources creating about 1,000 resources every hour. Do you really need that extra 50 supplies, or that extra 32 coins. It's hardly something to miss. This would be an issue if the plundering was really something worth it, but come on - any fairly high ranked player, unless they were being extremely picky and greedy would agree that the gains of plundering newbies is trivial.

I don't think there is any argument at all against Lodroth's suggestion - all it can do is help newbies thus more longstanding players.
 
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DeletedUser

Come on people, which is the game you've been playing :). I am really frustrated to see your comments here :) Mutzena, in the beginning you are using 5-15 minutes cycles only, just because the buildings are such, so if they steal one of your house, it is 5 minutes production. Being robbed 10 times per day it is highly improbable, but still, 10 times they rob your 5-6 15 minutes houses, oh what a grief, oh what a pain, I've lost 30 minutes production, I will be never able to restore it. This game is completely protective face it. Attacks practically cannot harm neither you nor a first day player. Only when the resources come up it is painful, if somebody steals them from you. But its not a problem to protect them with the 1 day cycle. Don't panic :). I do not think that plundering is the reason a young player would have to retire :). Something more, the only reason for advanced players to attack is to make points. So I am sure you can negotiate something like this, I will keep armies in my defense but please do not steal from me. It is so easy and it brings the social element into the game. I think the most important and valuable part of the online gaming.
 

DeletedUser

haha one last remark, maybe they can put a diamond shield :):) First - 24 hours starters shield and then ONE time ONLY - 50 diamonds for 24 hours protection, if you feel you need it :):) Then if in 48 hrs you are not being able to face the game :):) come on :) its impossible :)
 

DeletedUser

Come on people, which is the game you've been playing :). I am really frustrated to see your comments here :) Mutzena, in the beginning you are using 5-15 minutes cycles only, just because the buildings are such, so if they steal one of your house, it is 5 minutes production. Being robbed 10 times per day it is highly improbable, but still, 10 times they rob your 5-6 15 minutes houses, oh what a grief, oh what a pain, I've lost 30 minutes production, I will be never able to restore it. This game is completely protective face it. Attacks practically cannot harm neither you nor a first day player. Only when the resources come up it is painful, if somebody steals them from you. But its not a problem to protect them with the 1 day cycle. Don't panic :). I do not think that plundering is the reason a young player would have to retire :). Something more, the only reason for advanced players to attack is to make points. So I am sure you can negotiate something like this, I will keep armies in my defense but please do not steal from me. It is so easy and it brings the social element into the game. I think the most important and valuable part of the online gaming.

You're making wrong assumptions in my opinion.
Yes they are only 5-15 mins production at the start, but someone might log off after 10 minutes of playing and not come back until a few hours or even a day later.. only to find they can't continue because they have to repair and wait again (which they might not even have the time for).

It's not about the building rotations, it's about the PLAYER being active.
My suggestion protects they player's online cycle. If they truly are active all the time, then the tresholds can be met within 1 hour as I stated in a previous post. So what's the loss?
It gives them 1 hour to learn the game.

There are players that just don't give a hoot about anyone else and plunder whatever they can. It's sad, but there are.
My proposal does NOT restrict those players' gameplay even, if only for a very short while to the fresh newbie.

As for the diamond shield; no one should resort to diamonds to be able to play the game. Especially if you've just started.

- L
 

DeletedUser

read my diamond shield again :) you get your first 24 hrs for free if you like it you buy one time extension for 50 diamonds... By the way in the beginning there is a series of quest which if you take you stay an hour or so in game. Of course you could skip the quests, or even continue the quests the next day, or even do not continue the quests, but believe me this players will not start playing the game on a regular basis... Basically I do not mind if there is a 24 hours shield even longer ... it practically changes nothing in game, but my point is this ain't motivate the players to stay ...
 

DeletedUser6939

Yea, this is very huge problem, atleast 3 of my friends ordered a hit on their stronger opponents who had minimum 1592 points. They said Iron Age units literally overwhelmed bronze age units.
 

DeletedUser

Yea, this is very huge problem, atleast 3 of my friends ordered a hit on their stronger opponents who had minimum 1592 points. They said Iron Age units literally overwhelmed bronze age units.

I'm stopping this specific discussion before it lifts off.
If your 3 friends had Bronze Age units, the thresholds will already have been met and my idea does NOT protect them.
I'm not for protecting players long term, just the fresh newbies to get a window to learn the game.

- L
 
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