• Dear forum reader,
    To actively participate in our forum discussions or to start your own threads, in addition to your game account you need a forum account. You can
    REGISTER HERE!
    Please ensure a translation in to English is provided if your post is not in English and to respect your fellow players when posting.
  • We are looking for you!
    Always wanted to join our Support or Forum Team? We are looking for enthusiastic moderators!
    Take a look at our recruitment page for more information and how you can apply:
    Apply
  • The Castle System is now open


    Kings and Queens, you now have your very own castle for your city. Learn all about our newest feature here!
  • Forum Contests

    Do you want to win great prizes? Don't forget to check out the current contest here.
  • A New World is here!


    Our newest world is now open! Read all about it here!

LOW Advanced Guide

  • Thread starter DeletedUser9614
  • Start date

DeletedUser9614

CHAPTER 15 – Down-trading

It is a long-term method of goods stocks expansions of lower goods for the low cost. In order to begin this process, you need a large production of highest age goods. The point of doing this is to design a stairway that will reduce your highest age goods to lower age goods. In other, words if you do everything correctly, 1 good should turn into more than 1,000 goods after 10 down-trades (2^10).

Where the major of highest age goods should come from?
- Repetitive quests
-Buildings
-There are other sources including plundering, dynamic tower, and others but for this purpose

Why would you need massive stocks of lower era goods?
- Selling goods for FPs
- Helping (loan) younger guild members to progress faster
- GvG earlier ages unless you force other members to stay earlier ages or unless you force members to produce goods for lower ages GvG
- Just to have it because you are competitive player and you want to be prepared for whatever designers throw at you

In ideal case, down-trader wants to push goods down doubling it every era. In many cases, this is possible except the 4 newest eras where there is large imbalance between supply and demand; all ages should sell for 0.5. If you have a difficulty, you should up the trade to 0.6, and it should go. The problem with four newest eras is the following:

Newest age goods = Goods from that age very quickly show up on the market after introduction. They are overabundant because people mainly produce them, and down-traders flood the market with them. The introduction of the age is always the greatest time to sell newest era goods down as there is large hunger for them, and people are willing to pay with “newest age – 1” goods. Acting swiftly allwos buildup of "newest age -1" that will further allow expansion of -2 and -3. However, over time it becomes very difficult to push them down the line.
Newest age – 1 goods = They are usually most problematic. People burn them in GE. Not many individuals produce them. There are heavily purchased with “newest age” goods.
Newest era – 2 goods = They are usually short because highest players have not focused on their production for 2 ages and they were most likely purchased with higher age goods. Also, they are drained with unprepared players who offer 2x “newest era – 3” age goods because they run out and they have the excess of “newest age – 3” goods coming from goods buildings.
Newest era – 3 goods = They are usually overabundant because they are provided by GB for free for all players in the latest age

Overall down-trading:
“newest age ” goods >TO> “newest age - 1 ” goods = sell at 0.5 initially when age is introduced, you might have to go as high as 0.8 if things get really bad and market stalls
“newest age-1” goods >TO> “newest age -2” = this is a nice trade because you sell goods that are short for goods that are short. Since people need newest age-1 goods for GE, you are likely to get full price with 0.5 for what you offer
“newest age-2” goods >TO> “newest age-3” = this is easy sell as much as you want at 0.5 because of “newest age-3” overabundance
All other ages below try at 0.5 if not up to 0.6, it should sell.

With this technique, you can accumulate five-digit amounts of each goods over longer period of time. If you are working in a team, you can reach, a six-digit supply for your guild, and the best of it is that it will be in your pocket not fixed in treasury.

The more attractive you make it the better it will sell. Offering all combinations and amounts makes it even better. If found offering 25, 50, 100 amounts best-selling, and amount of 200 sell not as good but it is a large chunk, so I would recommend posting it as well. Sometimes 400 goods trades can be taken but it is much more uncommon unless that is very needed good.

Here is example how you down-trade 1 specific good. With full down-trade set across all ages, you are looking at +100 pages on the market.

downa.jpg

downb.jpg


How much can you make? You can make about 5,000-20,000 (count) goods a week if you post a full set. If you include repetitions, it might be higher. Can you produce 10,000 (count) goods? Yes, you can, but it will cost a lot of space in your city, and it will be nearly impossible to produce 10,000 high-age goods over 1 week. But, why not have it for free?

You post one set every week. It takes about 2-3 hours to post a full set. Of course, there will be goods shortages, and you might not be able to post some down-trades because of excessive demand and short supply.

People will praise you for the variety of goods that you offer and they will take your trades, and you beat AI rates even with tavern upgrade! ;)

Adding friends who are generous buyers of your would not hurt as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

numbrcrunchr

Corporal

DeletedUser9614

CHAPTER16 – Sabotage

This chapter covers options for dealing extensive damage to other guilds. In order to carry out sabotage, you need rights. In order to get rights, you need to build up trust to receive these rights. You have option to further grow your rights or carry action at lower level of rights. It really comes to time and commitment. In most cases, if you show that you are good at the game, help the guild, and participate, you will receive higher rights. When you ask for rights, make sure you are specific in your request to avoid questioning why you need those rights. For example, “I need leader rights” vs. “I was unable to replace during siege, can you give me trusted rights please?” And of course, being pushy will expose you quickly.

Below are several loopholes that are currently present in this game, and I want them to serve as a warning to founders that might be unaware of possible consequences.

Trusted rights:

A trusted member cannot release more than 4 sectors. However, a trusted member can set infinite sieges. That means, he can set 10 sieges or more at the same time to up the cost and then cancel them to burn as many goods as possible. As long as the person is prepared well with units for sieges, the entire treasury even if stores large amounts of goods, can be emptied in all ages within 1-2 hours. This definitely will paralyze guild’s ability to recover for weeks, and further attack on this guild sectors will decimate sectors as there is no goods to open slots or fill.

Moderator rights:

Massive guild forum “format” might not be damaging but if somebody work on the forum for long time, it might be really annoying. Also, you will never know who deleted posts as there is no record in the game.

Leader rights:

All of the above PLUS Leader has the ability to remove all members from a guild. A leader has ability to add new members, so the amount of sectors that can be dropped really becomes a multiplayer of people involved. A “merge” of two guilds might be a risk because one person can assign trust rights to all others and everybody else can release sectors. Luckily, for this game there is 96h cool down, so the person that joins cannot drop sector immediately even with trusted rights. For less experienced guilds, large influx of players often will be welcomed and tolerated, but it will not be in most cases for large guilds. In this case, it has to be presented as merge or in another believable way. Leader can remove large number of members and this will automatically contribute to losing an important position in GE, but it is a high price to pay for being exposed with leader rights. However, it can be done with combination of others.

Founder rights:

This is simple and most ultimate desire for those want to carry out sabotage :) Dissolve
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser110914

You say that the Arc is a must have, allowing you to snipe, but if I look at the description of the Arc it says that it donates good to the guild treasury every 24 hours and more contribution rewards. Is that what you mean with sniping? Since you put it in the same sentence as the Lighthouse and St Marks, and those buildings give you an increased coin/supply production and goods every 24 hours.

Love the guide btw, I realised that I was stupid to aim for certain GB early on in the came (just reached Industrial age on Houndsmore)
 

DeletedUser110195

The Arc increases your ability to snipe because it increases GB contribution rewards, allowing you to put more on a GB without taking a loss, with high levels allowing you to put on more than 50% of the total to level the GB and make a profit.
 

DeletedUser111420

Loved this guide, lots of things I definitely take on board. I since hunted the Arc and have it up. Once I get it to level 10 that should help with contributions.

The only part I didn't understand is why we should aim for 80% technology? I have a very low amount of coins and very few houses due to having the Inno for population. I'm in a Level 3 Minimum GE guild, surely smashing through Tech will only make GE harder and be difficult to build anything. Then you have the issue of higher age needing more population so you'll need to break to level Inno & Traz to balance happiness.

I guess my question is from Indy Age, how long would you spend here and how many resources would you pool before moving on?
 

DeletedUser111420

^Afterthought:

Another question. I see people in-game with level 80+ GB's, at the moment I usually get 20 FP's from the usual in game timer + about 50 from my buildings/GB's. If we call that 70 per day in total to donate, maybe more from GE. I can contribute 300 to a GB to get 3 BP from Gold (If I'm lucky). Aside from looking for good deals where GB's are self leveled on high level, how do players get GB's with like +80 levels. Doing my method would take years to even get +10 levels. Is it the high level ARC that gets them such a good return on BP investment?
 

DeletedUser110195

Is it the high level ARC that gets them such a good return on BP investment?
It's also that they have hundreds of daily FP. The people with those 80+ GBs also have fields and fields of FP producing buildings. With a level 80 Arc, they can turn 100 FP into 190 FP. Now imagine doing that to 10000 FP, which many of them can thanks to FP packs gained over long periods of time.
 

DeletedUser111420

It's also that they have hundreds of daily FP. The people with those 80+ GBs also have fields and fields of FP producing buildings. With a level 80 Arc, they can turn 100 FP into 190 FP. Now imagine doing that to 10000 FP, which many of them can thanks to FP packs gained over long periods of time.
That's a very good point. So I have Cape at level 2, ARC at level 1(soon to be 2), Inno at 3, CDM at 5, Hagia at 5.

Alongside this I have a bazaar, a masquerade ball, lords manor, hedge maze, 1x full emperor garden, 3x full Maharaja palace sets, 1x FoY, 2x wishing well & 2 shrines.

I obviously need to upgrade my FP outage and due to all of these space is an issue. What would be your prio's? My current plan is ARC to 10 first, then move on to Cape after that to level 5 or 6. What are your thoughts?
 

DeletedUser110179

Many multi-million point players exclude Hagia from their cities ... is this advisable.

Cape Canaveral
comes out in first place as expected but Hagia can be built (and built up) very early on in the game.
My Hagia is on level 21 (12 fp/d) in HMA ... a usefull addition to daily fp income.
Arctic Orangery and Innovation Tower may, in fact, improve their positions if you consider medal rewards which further decrease
your cost of getting them levelled-up high.

FP Producing GBs.png


Hagia Sophia is no slouch and " any fp producing GB is a good GB " .
 

DeletedUser9614

CHAPTER 17 – Large scale GB leveling

This chapter addresses fundamentals of upgrading a GB with large quantity of levels. First of all, you need a group of player to exchange that will focus on building Arc to 90% (lvl80) initially. The minimum that you need is 4 people. GB owner and 3 donors that work together (but can be more). With 3 donors you can harvest 97% of rewards from a GB 0.97=(120x+60x+20x)/ (120x+60x+20x+5x+x). Ideally, you work with GB owner and 5 other people or more.

How to set up a fair system that everybody could benefit? Should you return 90% to host? How to spilt work? Who does what? Should you return what you get to GB owner? These are much more complex issue that I will not address it at this time. There is huge amount of details that can be improved, but I will focus on most fundamental principles that were consistently shown to be true. I would spoil the fun of figuring it out what works best for your team. I am spoiling the fun enough already. There are multiple solutions to these problems based on your current condition.

Assuming that all of you start with similar arc level, the estimated cost of the project per new lvl80 Arc is in the image below. Please refer for legend to Chapter 12. The bottom line is that the upgrading profit greatly increases as all Arcs within team grow and that cuts down overall cost.

arc2.jpg


The total cost from scratch per 0->80lvl Arc = 1/2*10*7000 + 1/2*50*(700+300)+1/2*20*(300+900) = 40500 net FPs

For very average player, this means 1 year project at about 120FPs/day or faster if you can utilize other arcs that are currently there. For more experienced and/or wealthy player it can be as fast as 1-2 months, or a 1-2 levels/day. You can always utilize noobs for “slavery work” or sell goods, see previous chapters.

The costs of leveling arc from 0->80 where you have 90% donors is much smaller.
The total cost from scratch per 0->80lvl Arc with 90% donors = 24023 net FPs
Majority of players have already 10lvl Arc, so taking lvl10->80, costs only = 21098 net FPs
Notice that it is nearly a half of what took initially to establish first 90% Arcs.

The savings doing together at similar levels vs. having 90% to help you are show by shaded area with bright green color:

arc4.jpg


Classically, FPs GBs initially should not be leveled above 1 year cost of the return in early game (net cost of 365 for Cape/AO and 219 for CDM/Inno/Hagia per level) because levels above will not pay for themselves before you complete research (about 12 months).

What will happen if you decide to build all FPs buildings at the same time without Arc? You will do what other 99-99.9% of server is doing, and you are setting yourself into long-term failure. Basically, you are planning a very expensive investment for very little return. First, you are not be able to get benefit from cheaper leveling because of arc bonus. Then, you will get yourself stuck in expensive levels 7-23, and that will be the end of your account because you will not be able to afford it unless you drastically change your approach.
X = level
Y = net cost assuming 5x 90% Arcs is available as a donors

costofgb.jpg


Further order of FPs building when Arc is available based on return on investment is:
(best) Cape > Inno > Hagia > AO > CDM (worst) and it can be derived from this graph:
X = level
Y = net cost assuming 5x 90% Arcs is available as a donors

cost individual.jpg


Notice the dip of Arc and Inno in "golden levels" region. This is perfect region where you want to take a full advantage of what has been described here.

Many players are worried about getting enough BPs. Especially those that just got new Arc will do stupid things to get more BPs. You do not need to do that at that point. BPs are free for you. For example: if 5 donors with 90% Arc upgrade one level of Cape at lvl80 BPs generated will be 14, 10, 8, 6, 5 (this includes 90% bonus). That is total of 43 BPs generated per one level. It is 500% more of what you need to open one level. Your team used 9BPs to open one level, so 34BPs are extra.

Usually, BPs are difficult to get when new Arcs are built, but that problem resolves around by early Arc lvl30’s.
When 90% Arc are available, the BPs problem for all GBs with cross leveling resolves in early lvl20’s.
The Arc in this game is grail because it grants unlimited free BPs if used correctly.

BPs are free in this game, FPs are not.

bp.jpg

bp2.jpg

bp4.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

numbrcrunchr

Corporal
Agree about the Hagia, and it is a popular GB amongst the elites according to
https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...e-of-great-buildings.11260/page-9#post-217074
however overall general views are mixed at best. I think one of the challenges is that it needs to get up to Level 19 before the fp production is greater than the equivalent land use for SoKs, assuming the SoKs are motivated. And of course the Hagia can't be plundered.

Many multi-million point players exclude Hagia from their cities ... is this advisable.

Cape Canaveral
comes out in first place as expected but Hagia can be built (and built up) very early on in the game.
My Hagia is on level 21 (12 fp/d) in HMA ... a usefull addition to daily fp income.
Arctic Orangery and Innovation Tower may, in fact, improve their positions if you consider medal rewards which further decrease
your cost of getting them levelled-up high.

View attachment 12753

Hagia Sophia is no slouch and " any fp producing GB is a good GB " .
 

DeletedUser9614

CHAPTER 18 – Sniping (Aggressor)

This chapter will address sniping from the point of view of aggressor and owner of 90%. In another chapter I will address the defensive methods of fight against sniping.

Why does the sniping work? Because players with high arcs can generate more profit than the cost of investment in a GB.

Let’s review the pattern of rewards. The second reward is half of first, the third reward is third of second, the fourth reward is fourth of third, and fifth reward is fifth of the fourth. All rewards are rounded to 5.

Top2 reward = Top1 / 2
Top3 reward = Top2 / 3 = Top1 / 6
Top4 reward = Top3 / 4 = Top2 / 12 = Top1 / 24
Top5 reward = Top4 / 5 = Top3 / 20 = Top2 / 60 = Top1 / 120

In terms of top5 reward on average:
Top1 reward = 120*top5
Top2 reward = 60*top5
Top3 reward = 20*top5
Top4 reward =5*top5

In the equations below I will use “120, 60, 20, 5, 1” for top1, top2, top3, top4, top5 respectively as their relative value.

Top1 is 120 / (120+60+20+5+1) = 58% of total rewards on average
When you take top1, you take more than half of available rewards.

Top2 is (120+60) / (120+60+20+5+1) = 87% of total rewards on average
When you take top1&2, you take most of rewards

Top3 is (120+60+20) / (120+60+20+5+1) = 97% of total rewards on average
When you take top1&2&3, you take nearly of rewards

Top3 is (120+60+20+5) / (120+60+20+5+1) = 99.5% of total rewards on average
When you take top1&2&3&4, you take basically all rewards

Assuming there are one to four people working together to minimize the cost and each have 90% arc, the cost of sniping from the start is:
(1/2) 50% of total FPs for one person (e.g. 400/600)
(2/3) 66.6% of total Fps (e.g. (200+200)/600)
(3/4) 75% of total Fps (e.g. (150+150+150)/600)
(4/5) 80% of total FPs (e.g. (120+120+120+120)/600)

2 snipers can work together or independently. However, if they work together their cost is 33.3%+33.3%, but if they work independently they have to secure top1 with 50%, then top2 with 25%. Then to total cost for independent sniping with 2 is 75% of total and team sniping is 66.6% of total. With large GB, this is what can make it or break is the profit.

If 1 sniper works, for 50% of total FPs, he gets 58% rewards
If 2 snipers work independently, for 75% of total FPs, they get 87% reward
If 2 snipers work together, for 66.6% of total FPs, they get 87% rewards
If 3 snipers work together, for 75% of total Fps, they get 97% rewards
If 4 snipers work together, for 80% of total FPs, they get 99.5% rewards
As you can see there is a sharp increase in reward vs. cost if 2 players work together, and this favorable trend carried to 3 players working together.

The graphs below represent income from Cape. The details for each GBs are different, but the pattern and general idea stays the same. Also, all examples assume that Cape is empty, and sniping is from empty GB. Sniping profit increase and/or time to finish level decreases as more FPs are added to it. However, the general patter and idea stays the same.

The first graph illustrates the advantage of working within a team vs. sniping alone. 2 snipers working individually and 4 snipers working together are not included in this graph because in nearly all cases, they are inefficient methods.

X axis = level
Y axis = net cost for host to complete (see chapter 12 for more details) and snipe net profit

cape2.jpg


As you can see, working in a team of 2 or 3 increases the profit. At peak levels around lvl 50-70, more income can be generated with 3 people. Team of 3 can be used in cases when speed of adding FPs matters, when something needs to be done really quickly so each player carries responsibility of 25% instead of 33.3%. Risk is also shared at the same time. Team of 3 is even more profitable as compared to other options if some FPs are already added to the GB.

X axis = level
Y axis = snipe net profit and snipe net profit per player

cape1.jpg


If the profit is analyzed for each player, the sniping as a team with 2 players dominates basically throughout all levels. If you notice also double and triple sniping, extends profitability of sniping about 10-15 levels each way as compared to single snipe. This gives a great advantage to teamwork vs. what lone wolf cannot afford alone.

X axis = level
Y axis = net fraction profit of FPs invested total

cape3.jpg


As GBs gets larger, snipes get more risky. Sniper can be caught because more FPs are needed to lock a GB. Also, the longer the level the less likely host will finish the level especially if sniper is causing extreme cost to the GB. Even the profitability range for best team combination sits in levels 25-85, the optimal levels are shifted to the left probably in 35-65 range because of lower risk.

But, I do not have 90% arc = then get one, and if you are unable to, read this guide again

But, I do not have good GBs to snipe = then add some friends that are good victims :)

But, the top1/2 rewards are different, how come you want to add same number of FPs = I assume that if you understand this chapter, you know the basic methods to address this issue. The simplest way would be to alternate spots. The more complex would be to calculate splits precisely and gift each other fps at the end. There are even more complex and more efficient methods to address this issue, and me telling you them would spoil the fun :)

How to screen quickly GB for a snipe? Should I open it and look if I can get profit? Here is flowchart:

1. Did you look at this GB before because it seemed attractive? If yes, look at it again if you think that was promising GB, or skip it.
2. Is the GB between levels 30-70? If yes, it is a profitable all the time. Look at it.
3. Is the GB outside of levels 30-70, but has sufficient number of FPs added? (this can be estimated by total FPs – 3*top1 reward, so for example if top reward is 120 FPs and total 700 FPs, anything above 340 FPs (+340FPs/700FPs) would warrant you immediately looking at that GB (700-120*3=340). I do not want to derive this here, but just give you the formula that you can use.

Be aware, you are no doing anything good for GB owner. The graph below represents how much a GB owner needs to invest before to level GB vs. how much needs to be invested to lvl GB after a particular snipe. Proper sniping with team of 2-3, can slow down the progress of a player by 50-75% (2 to 4 times) within profitable levels, and it is a nice weapon against your enemies. Plundering is annoying, but this is damaging. If you do sniping to maximize reward, majority of GB owners will definately not like you.
X axis = level
Y axis = net cost before and after snipe

cape4.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

numbrcrunchr

Corporal
You have my attention m8 :) Please elaborate on the assumptions I'm making in comparing the RAH to the LoA. According to the survey at:
https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...he-real-value-of-great-buildings.11260/page-9
the RAH is the 20th most popular GB amongst the elites, versus 12th for the LoA. The average no. of GBs owned by an elite player is around 15-16.
From the perspective of goods production only, having the FoD and ToB together gives more goods per total fp invested (compared to the RAH) for a slightly smaller footprint
https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...e-of-great-buildings.11260/page-5#post-196895
 
Last edited:

Vesiger

Monarch
I must be missing something, as I don't see how donating FP to a 'host's' Great Building can increase the cost of levelling it from the host's point of view?
 

DeletedUser110195

I must be missing something, as I don't see how donating FP to a 'host's' Great Building can increase the cost of levelling it from the host's point of view?
The only possible way this could cost an owner, is if a sniper levels the building, or drives off regular contributors, who know they aren't likely to gain value for cost, which in turn more of the cost would have to be paid by the owner.
 

DeletedUser110179

I must be missing something, as I don't see how donating FP to a 'host's' Great Building can increase the cost of levelling it from the host's point of view?
It's not the donation that's a problem ... it's the cornering of the most lucrative rewards.
Rewards decrease the cost of leveling a GB.

Two snipers take 1st and 2nd place on a hi-level Arc ... thus stealing the rewards (which are worth more than the initial investment).
Under owner control ... the rewards would more-than pay for the entire level (thus speeding up the leveling process).

That said, you need co-ordinated teamwork and huge reserves of saved-up fp-packs.
 
Last edited by a moderator: