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New Content Guild versus Guild

DeletedUser17514

Then the point will be proven that obviously GvG needs changing to avoid those situations.

Perhaps it will be a rule change banning your practice and suspending the offenders accounts..............
 
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DeletedUser13082

Then the point will be proven that obviously GvG needs changing to avoid those situations.

Perhaps it will be a rule change banning your practice and suspending the offenders accounts..............
They would have to ban the majority of active players who are still here then as pretty much everybody has ghosted at one stage or another now. It's been within the rules to do this for months, despite all of the complaints about it, then all of a sudden it's against the rules, and those who did the damage in the past get away with it? Not a very good solution.
 
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DeletedUser17514

"your practice" = demolition guilds as I suspect you knew but chose to throw a red herring in of ghost guilds. Suspending demolition guild members would be a very small number :)
 

wurdsmiff

'You mentioned that we are only hitting guilds which our former guilds were enemies with, this is not the case. We are a guild who hit any guild on any map at any time, if players want to hit a guild they can do so. Currently the majority of members are from guilds which were enemies of your own guilds, so of course the main targets are your guild line. If members of your guilds came over and joined us then our former guilds would undoubtedly be attacked too.'....so its a case of join us or be damned? I agree with your sentiment regarding the many faults of GvG, but the method is fundamentally wrong. If you wish to build support for your campaign, then alienating the remaining players and guilds will not help. Your numbers are low, there is no mad rush to join The Elite. You obviously wish to change the game, but without consensus of opinion on how. Whichever way you look at it these are dictatorial terms which neither the majority of players, nor the administrators should have to accept. A small group of players attempting to force change to suit their own needs amounts to bullying, and that I believe is not acceptable in the rules of the game. It is no longer of any consequence to me, but thank you for confirming my points so openly.
 

DeletedUser99445

its good to hear that change is coming.
Once it arrives and everyone voices their new complaints, perhaps then the developers will come to understand that you just cannot please everyone.
Everyone who has adapted to the GvG has had much more fun playing than those who haven't and when the changes come the game will either stagnate causing players to leave anyway or there will be more complaints.
Personally, I can adapt quickly to whatever changes they make without all the complaining but I am the type of person who gets on with things while others moan.
I can't wait to hear all the new complaints. LOLOLOL
 

DeletedUser13082

@Laxhill, find me a difference between a ghost guild and a demolition guild please? A ghost guild is temporary, a demolition guild is permanent, that is the only difference. the actions they take are exactly the same.

@wurdsmiff, you agree that the change is needed but say we are bullying people into agreeing with us? You shouldn't give into peer pressure so easily if that's the case :rolleyes:. Clearly you agree that change is needed, as do many others. Developers choose not to listen, we choose to make them listen. The more people who get damaged by these demolition guilds, the more that will come to the forums and complain. Anybody who dislikes demolition guilds obviously shares the opinion of the members in The Elite, that opinion being that change is needed.

@Gate2, agreed, you can't please everybody all of the time. However your view on these sort of guilds being a way of adapting to GvG Is still something I disagree with. This is not adapting to GvG, not GvG that people expected at least. What you have done is not to adapt to GvG, but to adapt to the bad design that GvG has. You said yourself that the reason you took this route was because you were tired of being on the butt end of others doing the same thing. That to me says that you shared the original thought, of what GvG was going to be, as the rest of us had. You planned on playing in that manner, then you had to adapt to a different way of play because GvG turned out to be a farce.

Ghost guilds, demolition guilds and all the rest of it exist because of the siege costs in GvG. Without these sort of guilds, GvG stagnates because of the siege costs. Kill to birds with one stone, change siege costs. These guilds no longer exist, and GvG doesn't stagnate due to the loss of them.
 
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DeletedUser97768

@DO: To be honest, the only people joining the demolition guilds are members of Titans and Avengers:M@chines - guilds that have lost sectors in large numbers, or other members who benefit by ghosting OoB and other guilds who are not a part of the 'Alliance'.
And all this under the premise of forcing the game developers' hand to make changes to GvG. This in effect amounts to blackmail really..

If you really want to clear a map, why not start by releasing all Titans and Titans: Part Deux sectors then? That's half the job done, isnt it? But no, you wont do that will you?

'Currently the majority of members are from guilds which were enemies of your own guilds, so of course the main targets are your guild line.' - That in effect, says it all doesn't it? We took out your sectors, this is an easy way to extract revenge under the guise of wanting to bring about change..You think those who continue to play the game as it stands are happy with the way GvG works? But we follow rules.

And if you say ghosting and demo guilds are within the rules, I think not. Look closely at Rule 6 of the In-game rules - REPORT A PLAYER WHO IS ABUSING THE SYSTEM. And ghosting is definitely an abuse of the system!

So mods, take note!

Change is definitely required. But demolition guilds are NOT the solution. Just because its possible to do so, doesn't mean you should. Act responsibly. Like I mentioned to you before, its not like the developers are unaware of whats going on - they are working on a solution. After all, they would not want to see players leave the game in droves now, would they? Play fair in the meantime.
 

DeletedUser13082

@DO: To be honest, the only people joining the demolition guilds are members of Titans and Avengers:M@chines - guilds that have lost sectors in large numbers, or other members who benefit by ghosting OoB and other guilds who are not a part of the 'Alliance'.
And all this under the premise of forcing the game developers' hand to make changes to GvG. This in effect amounts to blackmail really..

If you really want to clear a map, why not start by releasing all Titans and Titans: Part Deux sectors then? That's half the job done, isnt it? But no, you wont do that will you?

'Currently the majority of members are from guilds which were enemies of your own guilds, so of course the main targets are your guild line.' - That in effect, says it all doesn't it? We took out your sectors, this is an easy way to extract revenge under the guise of wanting to bring about change..You think those who continue to play the game as it stands are happy with the way GvG works? But we follow rules.

And if you say ghosting and demo guilds are within the rules, I think not. Look closely at Rule 6 of the In-game rules - REPORT A PLAYER WHO IS ABUSING THE SYSTEM. And ghosting is definitely an abuse of the system!

So mods, take note!

Change is definitely required. But demolition guilds are NOT the solution. Just because its possible to do so, doesn't mean you should. Act responsibly. Like I mentioned to you before, its not like the developers are unaware of whats going on - they are working on a solution. After all, they would not want to see players leave the game in droves now, would they? Play fair in the meantime.
Titans and Titans Part Deux sectors aren't mine to release.

Clearly there are no rules in GvG. What we're doing now isn't in the spirit of fair play to anybody we choose to hit against, however, the developers allow it to happen. Again, I don't care about what was lost in Titans guild, I had pretty much given up on GvG. I was logging in once per day to collect and then logging out again. As for where members came from, it makes no difference what guild they were in before joining us. I told you that you're welcome to join, same as I told Jai and same as I told others who have messaged me.

As for your pointing out of rule #6 I refer you to this:
HQ cannot be granted freedom however removing all defence from the HQ sector means the sector returns to an NPC sector and the HQ is put onto another sector owned by the guild. There are now guilds leap frogging from one sector to another to work their way inland with very cheap siege costs by taking a second sector and then releasing HQ so they can continue forward. If a HQ sector can't be granted freedom then why can it be freed simply by removing the defences. This has opened up a ridiculous loophole for guilds to exploit.

Surely this has to be a bug and would be classed as bug abuse and, therefore, against the rules?



The above quote shows that this IS rule breaking. This may not be classed as a bug but it is a fault. Rules have been broken and players have knowingly exploited a fault.
Clearly I know that, clearly others know that, but clearly inno don't see it that way. I've been going against for long enough, and all I've been told is that it's not against the rules, despite the above quote of my post quite clearly showing that it is against the rules. Feel free to send a support ticket, you'll get the exact same response as every body else. It's not classed as rules breaking, end of story.

Developers have been aware of what's going on since GvG was released. What have they done about it? They now give word that some sort of change is on the way. Remember all the other changes we were told about, safe to say we've got 2 more months to wait for this change at the very least. Personally though, I expect it will be around the 4 month mark.

As I've already told you, we've been waiting for change for months, change never came, a lot of people got fed up and gave up on the game. Now suddenly when "demolition" guilds start popping up all over the place, they're interested. The reason they wasn't interested before was because nobody took it to a big enough level for it to be seen as a real problem. Now people are doing just that and look how quick we get "change is on the way". Coincidence?
 

DeletedUser2989

@Laxhill, find me a difference between a ghost guild and a demolition guild please? A ghost guild is temporary, a demolition guild is permanent, that is the only difference. the actions they take are exactly the same.

@wurdsmiff, you agree that the change is needed but say we are bullying people into agreeing with us? You shouldn't give into peer pressure so easily if that's the case :rolleyes:. Clearly you agree that change is needed, as do many others. Developers choose not to listen, we choose to make them listen. The more people who get damaged by these demolition guilds, the more that will come to the forums and complain. Anybody who dislikes demolition guilds obviously shares the opinion of the members in The Elite, that opinion being that change is needed.

@Gate2, agreed, you can't please everybody all of the time. However your view on these sort of guilds being a way of adapting to GvG Is still something I disagree with. This is not adapting to GvG, not GvG that people expected at least. What you have done is not to adapt to GvG, but to adapt to the bad design that GvG has. You said yourself that the reason you took this route was because you were tired of being on the butt end of others doing the same thing. That to me says that you shared the original thought, of what GvG was going to be, as the rest of us had. You planned on playing in that manner, then you had to adapt to a different way of play because GvG turned out to be a farce.

Ghost guilds, demolition guilds and all the rest of it exist because of the siege costs in GvG. Without these sort of guilds, GvG stagnates because of the siege costs. Kill to birds with one stone, change siege costs. These guilds no longer exist, and GvG doesn't stagnate due to the loss of them.

You can see my post here for the definitions (in my view at least):
http://forum.en.forgeofempires.com/...le-Much-Needed&p=138879&viewfull=1#post138879
There is a clear difference as you pointed out "permanent vs temporary" existance but it goes further into the intent of the guild. Ghost guilds are trying to get around things put in place for a reason (siege goods costs) where as demolition guilds (previously known as annoying guilds) are not attempting this. Demolition guilds wish to be a permanent force that doesn't hold onto sectors and fight for the points or for the fun of it.

I bring this up because it is for this reason that a lot of discussion needs to take place when it comes to "what to implement".
Hello guys

So I wanted to drop in here as there are developments going on behind the scenes, there has been a very large amount of player concern in regards to the ghost guilds, and now demolition guilds. We have received a huge amount of feedback from you both here in the forum and via the support system, which we are taking notice of.

I realise at this point it may seem as though we are telling you yes we understand, yet there are no changes so it feels as though maybe it is falling on deaf ears - I assure you this is not the case.

There has been a lot of discussion in regards to this with the various team members on different forge of empires servers not just our own, so I can say at this point the issue is well known, and as such it is being reviewed. You will never see an immediate change of this type as planning needs to go into how a change can be made. Do we alter the game so that certain things can or cannot be done, or do we introduce a rule to prevent this, for example.

So please do rest assured, this is well known at all levels, and a lot of discussion and planning is taking place, but at this point I cannot say yes or no a change will be made as this would be subject to change.

As ghost and demo guilds are clearly different it needs to be decided if they are both banned completely, if one or the other is banned completely (the other left free to use), if both need to be made harder to do (but still possible and not against the rules) and so on. That is just the "are these guilds acceptable" discussion. After that you have the "how to implement" discussion which involves "is this going to affect other aspects", "is there going to be another loophole", "How can we make this harder to do with out making this other thing easier/impossible" and so on.

I hope that as players we can realise that while the problem has been taking a long time it has also taken a long time to see the full picture (demolition guilds were hidden originally but now are making a name for themselves). I also hope that as players we recognise that our picture of this game may not always line up with the developers vision for their game. That's not to say for certain they will leave it as it is, to me at least they seem to have intended something a little different to what has happened.
 

wurdsmiff

"@wurdsmiff, you agree that the change is needed but say we are bullying people into agreeing with us? You shouldn't give into peer pressure so easily if that's the case . Clearly you agree that change is needed, as do many others. Developers choose not to listen, we choose to make them listen. The more people who get damaged by these demolition guilds, the more that will come to the forums and complain. Anybody who dislikes demolition guilds obviously shares the opinion of the members in The Elite, that opinion being that change is needed."
One example of flawed logic from your replies and you are clearly attempting to rationalise your behaviour. Most disagree with your antics and have resisted giving in to you, but just because bullying is unsuccessful, does not mean its not bullying. Nevertheless, a poor attempt to distract from the topic. From the above replies you really seem to be struggling to support the validity of your tactic. I would suggest that demo guilds be banned immediately whilst Inno decide what to do. A small minority of players are succesfully disrupting the entire game to achieve their own agenda and punitive action has to be immediate. Despite your logic, it is not the flawed set up which could drive more players from the game, but the lack of action regarding the issue of demolition guilds.
 

DeletedUser17514

@Laxhill, find me a difference between a ghost guild and a demolition guild please? A ghost guild is temporary, a demolition guild is permanent, that is the only difference. the actions they take are exactly the same.
@death ouron lol I don't have to - you are a tail trying to wag the dog (FOE) and in such cases there is usually only one winner. I will humour you one final time however. You are seeking to defend the indefensible. You know full well the difference. Ghost Guilds, while many do not like them, are a tactic used to acquire and keep sectors. Demolition Guilds merely seek to wreak havoc by going through vast swathes of sectors conquering and releasing as they go. The two are completely different as you well know. The actions they take are not the same. Ghost guilds do not seek to destroy Guild Wars while you openly admit to wanting to do exactly that. Hiding behind saying the actions ghost and demolition guilds take are exactly the same is delusional. You may continue denying the obvious to your hearts desire lmao.
This is my last comment FOE will deal with this.
 
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DeletedUser99445

Tankovy.....There are also other types of guilds that only fight for fun. Not bothered about ownership of vast sectors but enjoy a good fight too.
Have fun fighting other guilds and NPC sectors.
And we are NOT ghost guilds but we are stupidly called demolition guilds.
We have fought against other guilds many times and caused havoc but every one of them has either started the trouble or been part of the trouble.
With all the pages of ideas mostly from a few players, I am concerned that the developers are going to give you what you want.
If this happens and the game becomes stagnated then I have to live with your creations for a long time while the devs look for another solution. Remember they don't like to undo their changes.
 

Praeceptor

Lieutenant Colonel
Many of you are missing the point in this thread.

I'm not in a "demolition" guild to destroy your empires, I'm in a "demolition" guild so I can move across the map to reach sectors that will give me more battles.

Since PvP was ruined, GvG is the only real way to accrue battle points.

If GvG changes, like Gate2, I will go back to hammering the neighbours.

Sorry!
 

Hippocratia

I keep wondering what exactly people want out of GvG? There's been a lot of comments about tactics that people don't like or think are unfair and not in the spirit of the game, but what do you want? It often sounds like you want a rule-bound type of warfare where evenly-matched guilds compete on the right maps at pre-arranged times; the kind of warfare where two armies did line up and wait for the generals to give the signal to fight.
 

DeletedUser99588

I keep wondering what exactly people want out of GvG? There's been a lot of comments about tactics that people don't like or think are unfair and not in the spirit of the game, but what do you want? It often sounds like you want a rule-bound type of warfare where evenly-matched guilds compete on the right maps at pre-arranged times; the kind of warfare where two armies did line up and wait for the generals to give the signal to fight.
I think players want to have fun but the excessive goods required once you have had some success diminishes this so now you have players finding alternative ways to enjoy the GvG feature. GvG could have been so much more than it is but there is a noticeable lack of creativity from the developers.
 

DeletedUser1081

They would have to ban the majority of active players who are still here then as pretty much everybody has ghosted at one stage or another now.
I'd still be here! :cool:

But anyway! Did Kimba really say "change is coming"? What she wrote is:

So please do rest assured, this is well known at all levels, and a lot of discussion and planning is taking place, but at this point I cannot say yes or no a change will be made as this would be subject to change.
To me that comes out to "everyone knows there's a problem but there's been no decision about whether to change anything." Is Kimba and/or Tracey can clarify what that statement was supposed to mean, that would be great, please and thank you kindly.

If it were up to me, GvG would simply be closed down. Some sort of prizes can be handed out to participating guilds (diamonds, a monument, a town hall enhancement), goods invested can be restored to treasuries and then be used to buy guild level-ups or something useful like that. Then they can take a year or so to think through and thoroughly test some new improved and far more imaginative type of guild competition.
 
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Kimba Lioness

So having read through since my last post I can see there is still concern, understandably. While it has been going on for months as some one stated, changes have been made already during this time. We had the limit introduced so guild members may only grant freedom to x amount per day, as well as the 7 day guild rule in response to the ghost guilds.

Clearly these haven't fixed the issue, so more work continues :) I will keep you posted but I don't want to say this or that will happen, until I 'know' with some certainty what will in fact happen.
 

DeletedUser65431

a noticeable lack of creativity from the developers.
Obviously it's not their responsibility, but the same could be said about the players. There is no ingenious enhancement or concept lurking in the ideas forum.
 

DeletedUser99445

Yes its true.....restrictive stifling changes have already been made and it has slowed down the GvG until it is just slightly above Stop.