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Goods buildings explained

DeletedUser1688

I know that but I think he was asking before if you have improve stone with new reseaech and new stone building thats why I posted.
 

DeletedUser1081

just curious: can i still build a regular stone mason after i've researched the improved version?
and as long as i'm on the subject: do any of the structures (other than town halls from earlier eras) become obsolete/unavailable?
 

DeletedUser

Didn't researched it yet (my next one after brownstone houses) but the improved stone building cost 14000/27000/460 pop like all the other HMA good buildings so the regular stone mason should still be there. Everything I research so far is still available to be built, I don't think anything will go unavailable as you could need almost anything later on.
 

DeletedUser1081

thanks hydro9226 - that's good to know. if i recall right Civilization "updates" structures as one goes along - like the Stone Age hunter would become a medieval hunting lodge or whatever. but if it's not an element of this game: fair enough!

rats & drats! i had to delete my whole next post, with the charts Randgris and Vanguard are talking about below. grr and bah humbug - but the updated one is a few posts down.
 
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DeletedUser

this seems like the most appropriate thread to put this in - based on Ooidal's excellent guide to the goods needed for research, and Vanguard's excellent guide to the continental provinces, i've created this document showing how much one would need of each good to do all the research and negotiate one's way through the continent.

doing it made me kinda crosseyed, so there are probably errors - i'll be glad to correct any that anyone points out. be kind, though!

View attachment 643

that's weird, for sure silk would be a more pleasing gift to start talking about negotiations than rope and there isn't a single one.... which would probably mean that the absence of LMA goods in the negotiation demands for LMA provinces indicates that we should really be fighting those provinces an age lower...

nice effort mink, Breturia and Canturia lies ahead, I'll try to tally their demands and beyond, see if you have it right up there
 

DeletedUser1081

well, the update (below) helps with that silk! it does look unbalanced, but you know the magic word:
beta!
 
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DeletedUser176

You confused this: I added one, and two are yet to spy ;)
I guess you forgot cuttingham last time, it was already there.

Also it's just 15 basalt, not 45. Sharpen your numpad skills ^^
 
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DeletedUser1081

oops! thanks for the finetuning :cool:
i couldn't coax it to change attachments in the previous post, so here's the corrected version here:

tech & negotiations.jpg
 
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DeletedUser

Question for someone who has an improved resources building. Does the cost to "produce" resources in the improved building = the costs of the other resource buildings of that age?

What I mean is this. to produce a 4 hour stone production it costs 100 gold and 100 production.
Improved stone comes from the HMA where resources cost 800 and 800. does the improved stone also cost 800 and 800?
If so I think this is partly a rip off. as that wold take the cost per stone from 100 to 400 per (since you get twice as many) Yes it takes up less space, but unless you are desperate for space, 2 1st level stone masons would be cheaper as it would only cost 200 and 200 instead of the 400 and 400 of one improved stone mason.

I hope I didn't confuse you. I had to do editing as I went since I was confusing myself:confused::confused::confused::confused:
 

DeletedUser

It costs 800 and 800 but it gets worse as you need 224 extra workers so that means at least 2 houses and happiness buildings/decorations. In the end, I'm not sure if the small amount of space saved is worth it.
 

DeletedUser

Question for someone who has an improved resources building. Does the cost to "produce" resources in the improved building = the costs of the other resource buildings of that age?

What I mean is this. to produce a 4 hour stone production it costs 100 gold and 100 production.
Improved stone comes from the HMA where resources cost 800 and 800. does the improved stone also cost 800 and 800?
If so I think this is partly a rip off. as that wold take the cost per stone from 100 to 400 per (since you get twice as many) Yes it takes up less space, but unless you are desperate for space, 2 1st level stone masons would be cheaper as it would only cost 200 and 200 instead of the 400 and 400 of one improved stone mason.

I hope I didn't confuse you. I had to do editing as I went since I was confusing myself:confused::confused::confused::confused:

You made since, and considering the post below you, I think I would rather just keep my 1 regular stone mason anyway, lol. I already have all the stone I need for the whole tech tree anyway, well until they add more ages.
 

DeletedUser

in the screenshot of your first post, it shows the goods building telling you how much deposit has been left.
does it show elsewhere now, coz it doesn't show on my buildings
 

DeletedUser65

in the screenshot of your first post, it shows the goods building telling you how much deposit has been left.
does it show elsewhere now, coz it doesn't show on my buildings

thats because the deposit limit has been removed, so if you have the deposit you can produce goods indefinately now :D
 

Surge

Brigadier-General
I want to make a point. Buying improved buildings is actually worth the cost. Let's take the improved limestone mason. 9 squares, doubles production (10 every 4 hours). Then look at 2 limestone masons. Same production, 32 squares. If you replace them with an improved version, you save a LOT of space.
 

DeletedUser

If you have a space issue, then you are 100% correct. but the flip side is this

Reg Stone People for 2 regular ones = 108x2=216 >>>>>>> Improved stone = 460 (over twice as many)
Reg stone costs for 2 = 200 & 200 >>>>>>> Improved version = 1600 & 1600 (that is 8 times as much)

So is it really worth removing your one regular stone, and replacing it with an improved version? The debate goes on
 
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DeletedUser

In addition to Hakuna's comment you also need the buildings to supply the extra 2400 of each res (for limestone) so in reality you need at least a 3x3 or 3x4 LMA supply building AND the housing to support BOTH the goods and supplies buildings - this would require 2 apartments just to cover the additional population - after this you then need to consider how much housing to provide to generate the income to support the Advanced Mason. bare rates on Estate houses means an additional 5 houses (this would also cover the population requirement).

In summary

Goods building equivalence

Advanced Limestone Mason 3x3
Additional LMA Supply Bldg 3x3
5xEstate houses 5x2x2

So in reality we are using 38 squares to support the advanced building as opposed to 32 for the two basic ones - theres a spare alchemist in there somewhere ;)

Oops - nearly forgot there is also the space required by cultural buildings/decorations to cover this population (615 bodies) bare minimum for this woult be two cartographers at 2x3 apiece so in actual fact it COSTS you 18 squares - that's enough room for a third Mason :D
 
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Surge

Brigadier-General
Have you forgotten people have leftover population? I have tons of them I don't even care if I need more gold and production to support an imporved building.
 

DeletedUser

Have you forgotten people have leftover population? I have tons of them I don't even care if I need more gold and production to support an imporved building.

But you don't save any space :P those 18 spare squares can account for another 4 houses. Also whatever you have to spend on production gives you less resources to spend on improving the state of your city and paying for research costs.
We all have our own playing methods and if you want to sell yourself short by all means go ahead - I merely pointed out that it's a false economy to make such a heavy investment in the current advanced masons ... they just seem to give a bad return on investment
 

DeletedUser

OK - I've done some maths and I concede tha there is a space saving to be had when using the improved buildings, not much though.
Working through the Tech trees for the appropriate age when the improved building appears I've worked out the closest usage of space requirement that is needed to support production from that building so:

Stonemason - using 2 of these (32 spaces) requires an addition 22 spaces for other buildings (1x Alchemist + 2x Gallows +2x Town House) to provide supplies for production, happiness and population - totalling 54 spaces in all
Improved Stonemason - (12 spaces) requires 38 additional spaces (1x Shoemaker, 1x Church, 1x Brownstone House, 3x Town House) - total 50 spaces
Saving 4 spaces

Limestone Mason - in addition to the 32 spaces used by these you will also need another 27 for an alchemist, a church, 2 Apartment houses and a Brownstone house - total 59 spaces
Improved Limestone Mason - (9 spaces) needs support from a brewery, a library, 2 apartment houses and 3 estate houses using 45 spaces - total 54 spaces
Saving 5 spaces

Goldsmith -two of these use 24 spaces and although the combined resource cost here is lower the population required is actually higher than that of the improved version - the upshot is that in this instance you need 65 squares for the standard Goldsmith and only 54 for the Improved version.

Doubtless as buildings improve these values will change but hopefully this will end the saga of Improved over standard buildings
 

Surge

Brigadier-General
Well, that does clear a lot up. But just to say, everyone uses extra buildings. You had very good calculations, and I very much like it. But to clarify, you used bare minimum calculations, however ignoring that people use more than 2 alchemists. Replacing my 2 LMs with one improved version actually saved a lot of space, allowing me to build even more. But, yes. Taking your calculations, the upkeep Improved buildings demand more buildings than before.
 
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