First Nation/Native American Racism In-Game

Discussion in 'General Community Discussions' started by SirenDenied, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    Jun 7, 2018
    I've just found the new map for the Colonial Era. And bluntly, I find it disgusting and disturbing. It's North America obviously and the first region I encounter, in the Southern US, is a First Nations/Native American group. The leader of the area is *shuddering* Sitting Duck.

    This is so far beyond tacky or racially insensitive that I'm actually shocked. A brief history lesson.

    The Europeans who initially discovered, colonized and developed the Americas committed *atrocities* against the original inhabitants. We are talking biological warfare (purposeful spreading of diseases), traditional warfare, and cultural and literal genocide. The US at one point had a POLICY of genocidal erradication of the Indian "problem." The effects of these policies continue through to present day.

    Yet this game, which could have chosen an entirely fictional land mass and fictional peoples, or who could have focused on the inter-European factions, chose to gamify and trivialize what happened over centuries to the original peoples of North America. In case anyone doesn't get how offensive this could be to some people, imagine a different gamified scenario.

    Imagine we were playing this game from the point of view of a historical Germany and suddenly you hit Contemporary era and you were invading what was obviously Poland or France. Oh yay, I'm A. H----r now and killing millions of Jews and subjugating entire nations. People would flip. But in searching online I can't find a single example of ANYONE mentioning how repulsive this turn of the game is. Is the next step that I import slaves from Africa? Because that also is part of the reality of the history of North America and if we can gamify attempted genocide, why not slavery?

    I don't know what I'm going to do. Should I keep playing so that I can speak from a position of knowledge or cut and run now? I have contacted Innogames but who knows what, if any, response I'll get. Holding off on making any decisions right this moment.
     
  2. Agent327

    Agent327 Tsar

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    Nov 13, 2017
    It is much worse. Have you noticed that almost all of the avatars are Caucasian? Look at those Great Buildings! Nothing African there! In fact, there even is a Gingerbread House! I think they are mocking Hansel and Gretel!
     
  3. bradype

    bradype Monarch

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    Jun 3, 2018
    This is not racist you are from Spain/Portugal and arrive in north America in a non colonised area where there are only native Americans since you discovered the area . This game is trying to stay in line with history , so who would be in America other than natives before european colonisation ?And if there weren't natives you'd complain about them being seen as non-beings .
    And , are you saying it's better that a white person dies rather than a native ? You don't get how offensive it is to some people .
    Edit : and when I read you again , it appears that you're saying that native Americans don't have the right to live in America .
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  4. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    Jun 7, 2018
    Now bradype's comment is an example of low quality trolling. Explaining at me that I would be offended no matter what, which isn't the case. That's a straw man argument. Then followed with a false equivalency by saying that some generic, fictional white people killing each other is the same as a specifically targeted cultural group. On top of that was the edited out comment about how I'd obviously be offended at the lack of female province owners.* And I'm not even sure what he is referring to by saying that I've stated that I don't think Native Americans have the right to live in America; he's obviously maliciously and pedantically misreading things I've said.

    To say that this game is in any way historically accurate is laughable. They use the advance of technology and culture as a framework for a piece of entertainment. Obvious effort has been made to smooth over the nastier parts of history, which is completely appropriate for an all ages, non-learning, entertainment product. I'm pretty certain that slavery and the Holocaust will be either completely ignored and/or utterly glossed over, for very understandable reasons. Why then are the atrocities and exploitation of the First Nations NOT glossed over? Why are they specifically targeted as a cultural group that it is appropriate to mock (Sitting Duck) and objectify when other groups are not acceptable targets?

    I don't believe this was done intentionally or with malicious intent by Innogames. That's kind of the problem. Aboriginal groups across the globe have historically "not counted" in all sorts of ways. Appropriation of land, casual racism, and even genocide was and is considered one of the unfortunate side effects of otherwise wonderful (some sarcasm) western progress.

    *bradype's pre-edited comment:
    "This is not racist you are from Spain/Portugal and arrive in America where there are only native Americans since you discovered the continent . Next step you'll be shocked because when you arrive in Europe during world war I there aren't any female province owners . This game is trying to stay in line with history , so who would be in America other than natives before european colonisation ? Where there female country leaders during world war I ? And if there weren't natives you'd complain about them being seen as non-beings .
    And yes , it happens that people die at war . It's actually racist to say that it's better that a white person dies rather than a native ."

    I also think it's worth noting that the individual who apparently is deeply offended by the fact that I find cultural mockery offensive is the first person to throw down the racist label. Hm. Interesting that.
     
  5. kazjun

    kazjun Private

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    Jul 1, 2017
    And? I don't know about you but I've slaughtered my way across Europe, Africa, Asia, North and South America and Arctic etc leaving nothing but death and destruction in my wake. And history is the same. Humans have been killing each other since the dawn of time. It isn't like inter tribal warfare between "First Nations" didn't exist. Or are you saying that scalping wasn't a thing?
     
  6. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    Jun 7, 2018
    Again with the ridiculous comparisons between this game and history. I'd be shocked if in the course of FoE we re-enact the Armenian death marches, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or the carpet bombing of Cambodia. Nor should we. And the game certainly wouldn't mock those horrendous tragedies or the victims.

    This time, very slowly.

    Why is it okay to trivialize one specific instance of attempted genocide and one group of people? A simple question that no one has answered.
     
  7. kazjun

    kazjun Private

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    Jul 1, 2017
    I am saying that we kill everyone equally. That's what you want, right? Equality? Well, you have it. We kill our way across every continent and every period of history. It is not just "one group of people".
     
  8. tuttipizze

    tuttipizze Warrant Officer

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    Feb 14, 2015
    I don't think you understand how the game is presented to you @SirenDenied.
    When playing the FoE continent maps, YOU are the explorer that comes ashore in the new world.
    Yes, you encounter local natives, so what. Nobody tells you to go and slaughter them.
    You can also sit around the camp fire, smoke a peace pipe, and NEGOTIATE with them for passage through their land, and peacefully continue your conquest without bloodshed.
    The fact that this option doesn't even occur to you, that you only think of killing the poor locals, seems very troublesome to me.
     
    General May-Hem and butterfly567 like this.
  9. tuttipizze

    tuttipizze Warrant Officer

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    What was that? You say that negotiating continent maps in this game is too expensive to be a realistic option for you?

    Why would you sit down with a bunch of natives and pay hundreds of valuables, when you can just send in a troop of musketeers and be done with it?
    Seeing that most of us think the same way when playing this game, we might actually have become famous "explorers" if we were born in a different age. You never know.

    The only advantage we have now, is that we can go on internet forums to play the racism card every chance we get, and blame King Inno for sending us to that continent in the first place. And don't forget to hashtag on Twitter about it, to make the world aware of the injustice. Very important.
    You'll still be executed for mutiny, treason, or desertion, but hey, at least you were fighting a noble cause. I'm sure the thumbs up were worth it.
     
  10. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    @tuttipizze @kazjun @bradype I'll assume that all of these players would be amenable to playing this game if it included importing and/or purchasing slaves. Because that's the point I'm making. One specific minority has been picked out here as an acceptable group to target and mock. Imagine if we played against a black AI character named Uncle Tom? That's about the level of inappropriateness involved here.

    And to say that we are doing this with ALL groups is again ridiculous. Innogames has chosen to not include cotton plantations. Cotton was the backbone of the early American economy. Instead it opts for tobacco. Why is that? Is it... optics? The fact that cotton plantations are very specifically linked in people's minds with the slave trade? The game does use "textiles", thereby changing the optics and focusing on the manufacturing aspect of finishing cotton in factories (usually in England) which was not there at least reliant on slaves.

    All of which I don't have a problem with. I'm not asking for the game to be historically correct, just not actively offensive. And Innogames has in the case of slavery worked hard to avoid that issue. It just failed on the Native American stereotype likely out of ignorance versus active offensiveness.

    The mechanics of game play is irrelevant to this discussion. (Although if you check out my city you'll notice that I don't have an issue with negotiation.) Edit: Just checked out the cities of @tuttipizze and @bradype. They should NOT be lecturing me on mechanics of game play. Their cities are pitiable if they have been playing more than 2 weeks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
  11. kazjun

    kazjun Private

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2017
    So, we've gone from killing natives as being bad to somehow bringing slavery into the game? Cause there is no slavery mechanic in the game by the way. So you have no point. By the way, will you be condemning Libya then? After all, they actually have open air slave markets. In 2018. I guess your army will be extra keen when it reaches the Middle East for your war of Liberation. Or is your outrage selective? Again, we mock and kill everyone of every race on every continent in every time period. By the way, since you are so sensitive, did you have any objections to killing all those Europeans in those early ages? Or was killing them fine since they were white? I mean, there must have been a lot of dead white people before you made your way to North America. And I remember many of them being stupid and mocked before we killed them. But it wasn't offensive till Native Americans? You went through what, like 51 provinces before North America?

    And again you go on with your "only one group is being singled out". Think earlier you mentioned Cambodia and Palestine? Well Cambodia and Vietnam get bombed in the Post Modern age. And Japan in the Modern age. And the Middle East gets a taste of Imperialism in the Contemporary era. And Africa gets a taste in the Future era. Is that diverse enough for you? And all are mocked and crushed equally. Oh, and our Guild Expeditions are basically us raiding South American Temples for loot. So no, Native North American's are not singled out for conquest.

    I take it then that my city passes your inspection? Should I be honored? Look, this is a hybrid war game/city builder. If the thought of war is distasteful to you, fine. But if you've made it to the North American continent you must have a general idea that conquest is a large part of the game. It doesn't become any less a part of the game as you progress in ages. Or you can negotiate everything to conquer the world with Capitalism I guess.

    Edited for spelling.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    Migraine of Ord likes this.
  12. Agent327

    Agent327 Tsar

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    Nov 13, 2017
    Can we shoot him?

    Btw, you forgot the sailmaker. It's in the game as well and without sails Uncle Tom never would have made it.
     
    Migraine of Ord likes this.
  13. tuttipizze

    tuttipizze Warrant Officer

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    Feb 14, 2015
    Ah yes, the old "I don't have anymore arguments, so I'll go look in your city to see if there's anything to nag about, to draw attention away from me failing at a discussion".

    Too bad for you that I don't play the EN worlds anymore, so this argument is also invalid.
    My main cities are on NL world. I can send you a screenshot if you wish, after which in turn I will kindly remind you that you are not in a position to lecture me about gameplay, or anything else for that matter, because my reproductive organ is much bigger than yours.
     
  14. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    Jun 7, 2018
    I seem to be misinterpreted purposefully. Anyone intelligently reading the things I've said would not conclude that I condone slavery in real life nor in game. Nor would they think I'm anti-war in this game. My very specific issue is with gamifying genocide and mocking one race when others are not. Why am I being purposefully misinterpreted?

    Maybe the real question is why are some individuals are so very butthurt by what I said. I've called no one racist, neither the players of the game nor Innogames. I seem to be the only person not dropping that label. Yet my arguments are being attacked as if I had. Why do these individuals feel like I have? I think it comes down to how they feel about themselves.

    If they actually have an issue with what I said, versus how it made them feel, they'd write me off as a libtard, SJW, snowflake and move on. I'm putting forward a nuanced argument on cultural awareness in the context of historical atrocities. It's a grey area, no question. But all the people piping up seem to want it to be black and white. By me questioning an aspect of the game, they see it as me calling them bad people for playing this game, for not paying attention enough to care about this. They want me to be saying they are bad people. Because obviously in their own minds (and likely in reality as well) they aren't bad people. And if they can interpret what I'm saying as equivalent to, "You are a bad person, shame on you," then they can disregard EVERYTHING I've said and not have to think about what I'm saying.

    The issues I've brought up are uncomfortable to discuss. Obviously. It's possible I'm being overly sensitive on this issue, and if on reading what I've said, and if on thinking about my points objectively without emotion, you feel that I am, then that is your own opinion. But even if I am overly sensitive, I think the questions that I have been asking are valid and important to ask. They aren't easy questions to ask and even harder to answer. Good people will have valid and different answers to these questions. That's how life works.

    But before you box me and my arguments up as hysterical SJW over-reaction, take the time to actually consider my arguments without the knee-jerk reaction of feeling like I'm calling you a racist or bad person. Because I am not and never have. It's some readers and reactors who are saying that about themselves in their heads and it shows in what they write.
     
  15. Migraine of Ord

    Migraine of Ord Master Corporal

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    Mar 16, 2018
    Mocking one race? Did you not notice all the other "races", ethnic groups, populations, societies, countries-- whatever-that are also "mocked" in some way- oh wait, you are barely through the beginning- just wait. They all get their turn in some way, of the ones more or less covered as you progress through the continental map. I admit I didn't ponder or memorize your statements, but it sure sounded like you were calling someone- FoE, employees, other players- racist for not also being mortified at the slurs you see- even if not directly.

    You appear to be the one "butthurt" and taking it all personally, otherwise, why not just write to FoE and let them know directly how you feel, as opposed to bringing it to the forum. Everything is fair game here, and you are feeding the fire. I don't think you are hysterical, but you are throwing crumbs to the monkeys, who are eating it up and then berating them for not responding the way you hoped with outrage and condemnation.

    In the end, this is a game, one you choose to play- or not- as you wish. You can spend your time and money in many other ways.
     
  16. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    Jun 7, 2018
    @Migraine of Ord , you have some points that I will address specifically.

    1. You are right. I have not gotten far in the game. One of the reasons I am continuing to play is in order to see how it turns out.

    2. I have not called anyone racist nor any comment racist. Because I don't feel that the game, its makers, or the vast majority of players are racist. (Statistically there are some obviously but that's a demographic issue.) My most recent point is that people feel like I am. It's like being at a party with a drink in your hand. You offer one to an acquaintance who says, "No thanks. I don't drink." The instant internal response most people have (including me) is, "Why? Do you think I shouldn't be drinking either? What's wrong with a casual drink among friends? Are you calling me an alcoholic?" When individuals question in any way something that we enjoy, it's hard to not feel judged. I'm asking questions and sharing my opinions. I'm not attacking anyone for playing this game or having made this game. I've tried to be very clear on that.

    3. Why keep this going? Because I think it's important. I think conversations like this are important. You have likely noticed that I've spent a lot of energy talking to the unseen audience. That's on purpose because it's far more important to me to reach out to people who are watching and assessing without getting involved. I'm not trying to change the minds of the people responding in this thread; they've made their opinions very clear and I have no interest in arguing with them. I'm using their reactions as a way to illustrate my own points to people who maybe haven't thought about this before and are on the fence.

    4. The initial issue, what I perceive as trivialization of atrocities against a specific minority did "butthurt" me. I found it offensive. Since then, nothing has bothered me personally at all. This is a debate and although I can get passionate, do not mistake passion for hurt feelings.

    5. I have contacted Innogames about this and haven't received a response.
     
  17. Agent327

    Agent327 Tsar

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    Nov 13, 2017
    Purposefully????

    So basically you are intelligent nd those responding are not?

    If you really were intelligent you would know that this is a game and nobody gives a crap about your rediculous objections.
     
  18. King Jared The III

    King Jared The III Lieutenant Colonel

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    Apr 8, 2018
    COMPLAIN TO SUPPORT(OR THE DEVS) IF YOU WANT TO!! Now please leave the forum alone.
     
  19. elfish lad

    elfish lad Master Corporal

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    Nov 11, 2017
    To the OP:

    I find your writing pedantic. I also think that you’re a troll hunter rather than an advocate for the rights of the historically oppressed or a beacon of hope for those melined as a culture in, well, a meaningless little online fantasy game site and time waster.

    You also are a terribly poor debater.

    Nonetheless? You have a point in the general if not in the specific. We, as human beings, should never be comfortable if/when (more like “when” most like) we are tempted to make light of the suffering of others. I’m not sure that’s what the Devs were meaning or doing by using the epitaph “Sitting Duck” (when in fact that’s what North and South American indeginous peoples were) but point taken.

    And? More apropos to THIS forum? Although much maligned by others here, and no particular friend of mine, if Agent327 challenges the efficacy of your post or train of thought? Listen. There is often truth in sarcasm and ironical statements.

    Now go find a website more serious for your rambles Troll seeker, this is not the droid you were looking for. It’s a space station.

    Take care. Be well.

    E.
     
    Migraine of Ord likes this.
  20. SirenDenied

    SirenDenied Private

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    Jun 7, 2018
    Some last thoughts.
    • Pedantic? Probably.
    • Troll hunter? Only when they come for me.
    • Agent327... I never once responded to. Not sure why you feel the need to come to the aid of someone I never counter attacked in any way. I kinda felt the comments about shooting people and Gingerbread houses somewhat irrelevant to things being discussed.
    • Advocate? Not really. I was hoping for thought provoker and conversation starter.
    My last post here because I've put more than enough energy into this and probably too much.

    With the exception of @Migraine of Ord and possibly @elfish lad not one response was in any way dialogue. When individuals were even vaguely willing to have conversation, I conversed. And when they threw stuff like you would expect of animals in a zoo, I reacted. All of this started out (and was throughout) a reaction to honest feelings and thoughts that I have on what is at the minimum culturally insensitive treatment of at least one group of minorities. My personal feelings for some reason offended, annoyed, and enraged people enough to come at me vehemently.

    I feel strongly about these issues. I make no apology for that. The original post was created with the intention of soliciting the opinions of others in the community. And I found out what those opinions were, or at least for a vocal few. Pretty disheartening.

    See y'all around. Or not.
     

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