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"Fair Trade" completely unfair. True fair trade calculator

When will you realise that there is no such thing as "tile based true fair". If I want to, I can get all my goods from doing recurring missions. Any idea how much tiles that is?
I gave you the answer about ethalon. I can't state it any clearer than I already did. So I'm copying the text from my previous post:

Tile based true fair system is like an ethalon meter (it can work in a very limited and controlled environment) but still it's used to compare with the all other length counter all over the world. Same for the calculation. It is created on the base data that can't be changed. Some people can use GBs to produce unrefined goods, other will not. Some will trade with profit. Other get them some from GE etc.
But still ethalon is counted based on the full chain of buildings. The bigger the chain - the more expencive is the goods - no matter how you obtained them.
 

Agent327

Overlord
I am not talking about unrefined goods and I am not using any buildings. I am not using 1 tile to obtain goods. What should my trade ratio be?
 
I am not talking about unrefined goods and I am not using any buildings. I am not using 1 tile to obtain goods. What should my trade ratio be?
The same as for everyone. So for you having only GBs it will be more efficient to trade more expensive products and leave the cheap ones to yourself. As for your trade partners. There will be no difference to them whether to buy them from you or any other person for the same rate.
 

Agent327

Overlord
Why? I am not using tiles. Your system is based on tiles and supposed to be fair.

Once again, what era are you in?
 

dimondus

Lieutenant
The same as for everyone. So for you having only GBs it will be more efficient to trade more expensive products and leave the cheap ones to yourself. As for your trade partners. There will be no difference to them whether to buy them from you or any other person for the same rate.
I can't agree with that. I think you're not fully understand why people in this game need goods for. They need them for 3 reasons: progressing through tech tree, building new GBs, GE and GvG stuff. And neither of those activities will ask you about "cheap" or "expensive" goods. I did not research into total amount of particular goods through all those activities but it would be natural to assume that devs distributed them about equally.
What exactly "trade partners" mean? Only among the guildmates trades are free (fair) and how many members can a guild have? Only 80 and consider not all of them are in the same age, have every deposit needed or even traders in the first place, there are fighters too and also a diamond farms.
So what I'm trying to say is while you did a good job clarifying goods ratios regarding to space and population, your model still lacks a lot of game aspects and mechanics. So I'd say leave it as a reference but don't position it as "true fair" because its not true. After all "fair" is what both sides agree upon - "correct" on the other side is what you're trying to archive but model needs some tweaking.
 

dimondus

Lieutenant
Tile based true fair system is like an ethalon meter
I thought you'll bring this example at some point but economy does not work like physics. 1 meter is 1 meter nomatter what, its a constant. Economy on the other hand is more a variable and depends on a lot of factors. Scientists (economics) have yet to invent an ethalon to the real world economy (applicable to each and every country or region) while physicists already done that. :)
 
I did not research into total amount of particular goods through all those activities but it would be natural to assume that devs distributed them about equally.
Completely same amout of goods needed for:
1) Tech. Prof here: Goods Buildings & Tech Tree Requirements
2) GE - Wiki GE
3) GvG - Wiki GvG
4) As for GBs - there is some difference based on the ones you want to have in your city.


What exactly "trade partners" mean? Only among the guildmates trades are free (fair) and how many members can a guild have? Only 80 and consider not all of them are in the same age, have every deposit needed or even traders in the first place, there are fighters too and also a diamond farms.
So what I'm trying to say is while you did a good job clarifying goods ratios regarding to space and population, your model still lacks a lot of game aspects and mechanics. So I'd say leave it as a reference but don't position it as "true fair" because its not true. After all "fair" is what both sides agree upon - "correct" on the other side is what you're trying to archive but model needs some tweaking.
You are right about the market. Fair - is when it's regulated by market. What I found in this game is that most top guilds PROHIBIT using rates different than 1:1 or 2:1 because that rates are widely considered as "fair". If there were no such often used rule I don't think I would do this research. So in case guild has a "fair only" rule I strongly suggest have both fair and "tile based true fair" as a possible rates to trade. This will greately elliminate shortage of big building's goods on the market.
 
I thought you'll bring this example at some point but economy does not work like physics. 1 meter is 1 meter nomatter what, its a constant. Economy on the other hand is more a variable and depends on a lot of factors. Scientists (economics) have yet to invent an ethalon to the real world economy (applicable to each and every country or region) while physicists already done that. :)
On the contrary - when you build a factory you can use the alternative cost method to make the best logistics and most effective production. That's exactly what I used. When building your city there are not a lot of variables that can change and get you the goods production. Main and unchangable source is goods building, so you can use it as ethalon to compare to other methods.
 

dimondus

Lieutenant
When building your city there are not a lot of variables that can change and get you the goods production.
There are GBs - a huge game changer and a lot of special buildings like wishing wells and set buildings! Try to look at other player's cities every other either a diamond farm or consist of event and set buildings exclusively. Those players also want to trade their goods and won't agree to your definition of "fair".
Completely same amout of goods needed for:
1) Tech. Prof here: Goods Buildings & Tech Tree Requirements
I said "about equaly" and was correct in that assumption.
most top guilds PROHIBIT
In other words its only couple guilds in each server, so its not wide popular and those players are trading mostly with each other because that is how neighborhood system works. And they definitely won't rely on goods buildings at that point.
 
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There are GBs - a huge game changer and a lot of special buildings like wishing wells and set buildings! Try to look at other player's cities every other either a diamond farm or consist of event and set buildings exclusively. Those players also want to trade their goods and won't agree to your definition of "fair".

I said "about equaly" and was correct in that assumption.

In other words its only couple guilds in each server, so its not wide popular and those players are trading mostly with each other because that is how neighborhood system works. And they definitely won't rely on goods buildings at that point.
As for special buildings they produce much less than regular buildings and give all resources in the same proportion. So still it's better to use regular buildings rate. Same for GBs because they cost a lot of FP investments.

Tile based true fair is not for neighbours. It's mostly for guilds and friends. You can use whatever you feel comfortable rate trading with neighbours.
 

Agent327

Overlord
As for special buildings they produce much less than regular buildings and give all resources in the same proportion.
They do?

I have a lvl 2 Zenzone 3x2 that produces 10 goods daily. Four out of five OF goods buildings are 30 tiles and produce 20 goods daily. That is what you consider to be much less???????
 
They do?
I have a lvl 2 Zenzone 3x2 that produces 10 goods daily. Four out of five OF goods buildings are 30 tiles and produce 20 goods daily. That is what you consider to be much less???????
To have your 10 goods from zen zone you need 5x5 whole set (25 tiles), not only 3x2 building. But that's not the point. From several of your previous posts I got that you just randomly pick some phrase and try to use it without whole picture to prove your point which I don't undetstand.

Yes. Tile based true fair is not a magical pill that's better than anything else. But it's still better than 1:1 and 1:2 in most cases.
 
I repeat friends=neighbors.
Special buildings produce more than goods buildings and does not require population or resources.
It's mostly applicable for the guilds who strictly use "fair" 1:1 and 1:2, so they can also use "tile based true fair". In those guilds you can't trade with neighbours using different rates, because it violates guild's policies.

As for the guilds who do not have such requirements. The document can be a guildeline for the fastest trades. So that your trades are accepted fast and both parties got the same benefit. Even if it's not your guildmate but your neighbour.
 

Agent327

Overlord
To have your 10 goods from zen zone you need 5x5 whole set (25 tiles), not only 3x2 building. But that's not the point. From several of your previous posts I got that you just randomly pick some phrase and try to use it without whole picture to prove your point which I don't undetstand.

Yes. Tile based true fair is not a magical pill that's better than anything else. But it's still better than 1:1 and 1:2 in most cases.
I don't NEED 5x5 for my ZenZone. I HAVE 5x5, cause it brings more than just goods.

I randomly pick some phrase, cause you obviously ignore what does not suit you. I have asked you several times now what era you are in, but I get no answer. I told you I can get goods without having to use buildings, zo zero tiles. No reaction to that at all. I can get 10 goods from a 3x2 building, or a 6x5 building. If I put 10 goods on the market, how on eatrth am I supposed to know what building they came of, to make it "true tile" fair trade?

Also, you keep going on like 1:1 and 1:2 are the only way trade is assumed to be fair. It isn't. There are several calculators that use the number of coins and supplies used to produce goods to decide what is fair.
 
I don't NEED 5x5 for my ZenZone. I HAVE 5x5, cause it brings more than just goods.

I randomly pick some phrase, cause you obviously ignore what does not suit you. I have asked you several times now what era you are in, but I get no answer. I told you I can get goods without having to use buildings, zo zero tiles. No reaction to that at all. I can get 10 goods from a 3x2 building, or a 6x5 building. If I put 10 goods on the market, how on eatrth am I supposed to know what building they came of, to make it "true tile" fair trade?

Also, you keep going on like 1:1 and 1:2 are the only way trade is assumed to be fair. It isn't. There are several calculators that use the number of coins and supplies used to produce goods to decide what is fair.
Zen Zone only produces 10 goods when it's near 3 other zen buildings. Prof here: Zen Zone 2 lvl Wiki Than means you need 5x5 zen building set to get thouse 10.

I have answered all your questions clearly (except for the era I'm in - this is irrelevant indormation). You don't seem to get the answers or may be you don't even try to. I won't reapeat the same stuff over and over again - just read my previous posts. I'll only answer new or valuable questions.

Hope my answers to you will help other readers.
 

Emberguard

Legend
The biggest problem with this suggestion is no one is going to be able to tell what is fair and what isn't with this formula

FoE doesn't provide a way to filter by fair and not fair, only what you are capable of accepting or not accepting.


Aside from which it's not possible to ever factor in every equation of how a player acquired a good. While the "base" rate might seem fair in your calculations it ignores GBs and event buildings. It also ignores the fact that it all evens out in the end due to the different deposit sizes throughout the game. It ignores that some goods have considerably less desirability and are over flooded in the market meaning no one will even be able to sell those goods.

Paper for example is so commonplace I can't trade to get rid of it, only to obtain it. What would be a fair price for that then?

Ok some goods buildings are smaller, that just means they're harder to get rid of stock if too many players age camp there not to mention certain goods are used more (and for longer) on the tech tree then others which would change the demand and value for those goods

Talc Powder for example is a remarkably small goods building but is only used for a single age in the tech tree and therefore very undesirable on the market


They do?

I have a lvl 2 Zenzone 3x2 that produces 10 goods daily. Four out of five OF goods buildings are 30 tiles and produce 20 goods daily. That is what you consider to be much less???????
Depends on the age

30 goods in a normal goods buildings versus 10 goods from an event building. But that's before refined goods come into play

Which is why I'm keeping certain buildings stored until I reach a age that requires refined goods as the advanced ages play a completely different game from the early ages in regards to goods


Zen Zone only produces 10 goods when it's near 3 other zen buildings. Prof here: Zen Zone 2 lvl Wiki Than means you need 5x5 zen building set to get thouse 10.

Your statement assumes the goods are in isolation from everything else. It's a moot point when that zen zone doesn't need population to keep it running

If we relied purely on Goods buildings and didn't have any GBs or event buildings contributing to the production of goods we'd need a ton of space for the population plus all the prerequisite's for that to work in addition to all our military buildings, our attack/defence boosts so we can complete GE and buildings for happiness

The zen zone might "need" 5x5 to max out, but it's space efficient as it provides needs for everything not just goods. Meaning you'd need to compare to if you only had 5x5 repeats of that set throughout your city compared to manually doing everything separate to find out what the true cost is

The biggest benefit for it is I don't have to worry about the cost of supplies or coins for producing those goods either.

Whereas in Houndsmoor I can't produce ANYTHING from a goods building because when upgrading my housing I ran out of supplies (I started with 700k), but my event buildings and GBs can continue to produce in this down time. So what's fair for the trades there?


One last thing, which wiki did you consult? You said it didn't tell you about the happiness aspect but yesterday I looked and noticed there were goods buildings that take away happiness as I was looking up stuff for how I'd use the dynamic tower
 
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Emberguard

Legend
If we really want a "true fair" system how about this?

> No player to player trade
> Trade between player to Inno
> System keeps track of where each of your goods came from
> Goods traded in order in receiving them (in regards to each individual stockpile. EG if you collected from a GB, a goods building and then a quest receiving all stone the system would use the GB stone first when trading stone specifically)
> Goods ratio calcutated based on the amount of resource put into obtaining said goods in exchange for the standard effort you'd otherwise need for what you're trading

Inno would need to make a crazy complicated calculation system that'd be flexible enough to integrate new event buildings without having to add to the coding for the trading aspects
 

Agent327

Overlord
Zen Zone only produces 10 goods when it's near 3 other zen buildings. Prof here: Zen Zone 2 lvl Wiki Than means you need 5x5 zen building set to get thouse 10.
Then let's approach it in a different way. In a previous statement you said your true fair trade takes into account if a goods building produces or needs happiness. What do you do with my Zen Zone? How does the attack boost work on the fair ttrade?

I have answered all your questions clearly (except for the era I'm in - this is irrelevant indormation).
I think it is rather relevant since it shows your lack of knowledge of the Game. Reading the Wiki isn't enough. You did not answer all my questions. What about the goods I get without using any tiles?
If I have 1000 of a good, how am I supposed to know which way I got the 10 I want to trade? Did I get it from 0 tiles? Did I get it from 25 tiles?
 

Vesiger

Monarch
The biggest problem with this suggestion is no one is going to be able to tell what is fair and what isn't with this formula
Which is why guilds (more than just 'the top few big guilds', going by what I've glimpsed in guild descriptions) end up using the 2:1 system: not only does it set a fixed exchange rate so that players know they can trade back any goods for what they paid to take them, it's also easier to oversee.
Hard enough trying to spot when somebody has set up a 2:1 trade between goods several ages apart, when you've got dozens of potential combinations - when they're all set according to customized values, it becomes almost impossible.