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Do You Hate Unfair Trades?

DeletedUser117706

Are you one of those players who hates unfair trades and who feels guilds need to kick people out who create unfair trades? Then this thread might be for you and give your ideas a voice. On the other hand, do you support a Free Market without imposing restrictions on players who employ different trade strategies? Then your voice matters too!

(A)
Definition
: Unfair Trade
noun
noun: unfair-trade; plural noun: unfair-trades
  1. 1.
    a goods trade not following the informal and/or unofficial rules of ettique and equality relating to trade as established by players, deviating from the game designers model.
    • trades created by a player for the purpose of capitalizing on pressing goods needs of other players.
  2. 2.
    a goods trade that may be considered inconsiderate, unkind or unreasonable according to informal practiced ettiquette.
verb
  1. 1.
    the offering of of a lower quantity of an earlier era good, or same era good, in exchange for a higher quantity of a later or same era good.
    usage: "unfair trading practices may be seen as unreasonable and inconsiderate and can cause InnoGames customers frustration and loss of enjoyment while playing the game."
(B)
Possible Solutions
:
  1. Implement a "Neighborhood Only" checkbox in the trades "Create Offer" area;
  2. Implement a Fair Trades checkbox that limits shown trades to fair trades.

(C)
Unfair trade Guild disputes
Arguments and hard feelings over how others trade causes people to quit the game and InnoGames to lose customers - period.

This player satisfaction and enjoyment issue could be resolved with the possible addition of a checkbox type method in the Trading Area to show only Fair Trades in the same manner as the Thumbs Up checkbox shows only "acceptable offers."

(D)
Wrongly Blaming Guild Members Who Create "Unfair Trades:"

When the Guild Trades area begins to fill up with the "unfair" trades created by a fellow guild member the speculation begins. Some suggest:
  1. Unfair Trades are meant to take advantage of a Guild;
  2. The Trades are confusing (which they are but unintentionally so);
  3. Unfair Trades are making it hard to find real or needed trades in the guild trades area;
  4. . . . and a litany of other concerns.
Blaming a guild member for employing an unusual trade strategy does not address the root cause of the problem that there is an urgent need for a method in the Trading Area to filter unfair trades from view, specially in the Guild Trade areas. This will improve player experiences and eliminate arguments, disputes and hard feelings that develop over these issues, while allowing players to create trades that some may see as "unfair."

(E)
Summary: What do you think?

Should InnoGames consider for future updates a checkbox like feature for Fair Trades to "only show fair trades"in the same way as the Thumbs Up checkbox shows only acceptable offers? What other solutions could InnoGames implement to limit era-trolls access to new players/customers?
 

DeletedUser96901

what is fair trade ?

is 20 paper for 40 basalt fair ?

and all who now say: yes
really? how can giving the production from one day on 2x3 space for two days on 4x4 be fair ?

or even in same era
20 paper = 20 tar ? so 2x3 size equals 3x5 size ?
 

DeletedUser117706

A further issue has emerged relating to the Trading area. The roll over text for the checkbox to limit the list to guild trades is unclear and states, "Only show guild offers" is an incorrect translation of the German language original which more correctly would be translated as "Show trades created by guild members"

Do you view "Only show guild offers" as "Guild-Only" trades, or as "Show trades created by guild members"? . . . I've seen both interpretations.
 
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DeletedUser117706

Yeah it'd be nice if you could type a value in and only view trades of that value. What's fair or unfair would be debateable but certainly if you join a guild you should be following their rules for trade ratios
This is an interesting statement that I have been considering. Let me post a quote from a conversation in-game that I found similarly interesting and get your opinion on it in relation to the concept of whether guilds can modify Inno rules you mention:
I'm not sure it is a guild's place, or right, to alter the rules Inno Games has established relating to trades. It is one thing to activate the Inno Games provided guild "Invitation" method/mode, but it is quite another for a guild to impose an informal set of rules that would cause a deviation from Inno Games rules. Despite the demonstrated preferences of some players for certain parameters in trade creation, guilds may not be legally entitled to present deviations from Inno Games trading definitions, particularly if it impacts a player whose primary rights of play are invested from Inno Games, not a guild. Should a player be mistreated by a group and not be supported by Inno Games in their right to utilize the rules, even within a guild that doesn't like those rules, the mistreatment could be seen as cyber-bullying on both the guild members and Inno Games for not addressing it.
I'm not sure if the InnoGames rules trump a guild's preferences, but shouldn't players be entitled to fully exploit InnoGames' established rules, regardless of whether a guild doesn't like that? Obviously there is a recourse for being wrongly kicked out of a guild correct?

On the other side of this issue, is how do we ensure a large volume of unusual trades that fill up a guilds trading pages, are not going to create overhead for other guild members searching for trades that need to be filled?

A simple method allowing a so-called "fair" trade view to be selected by a checkbox similar to the Thumbs Up "acceptable offers only" checkbox would resolve all of this it seems. Such would allow players to create unusual trades while at the same time allowing other players to "Show only Fair Trade offers."
 
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Emberguard

Legend
@teest it’s not modifying game rules though. Its condition of entry to that guild. There’s no game rules about trading except no push accounting. So if anything the “fair trade” informal guild rule protects the members of that guild and upholds the actual game rules. That’s not to say you can’t have unfair trades. Obviously you can and there’s no direct rule that says otherwise. Just can’t be accused or found guilty of push accounting if everything is fair. If the argument is based on game mechanics then it’s the game itself that defined fair as a 2:1 ratio
51391AE5-AC38-4DFC-B81B-BA26A4B6D7AD.jpeg

If players don’t like a particular guild rule there’s nothing stopping them from making their own guild without that requirement or finding a guild more suited to their preferences

It’s the guild founder/leaders right to decide what direction they want to take their guild and set rules/guidelines accordingly. As long as it’s within game rules and not contradicting the rules then that’s the guild leaders right to set that standard for their guild.

If they weren’t allowed to make decisions as a leader then there’s no point in having a leader. Otherwise you might as well have fully automated systems and everyone does their own thing

it’s no different from an employers right in the real world to set rules within the laws of that country in regards to how their employees should behave.



what I’d lIke to see in the game functions is an option to put a trade as “exclude guild”. That way you can keep the “fair trade” for within the guild and do whatever outside of it without impacting the guild
 
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Emberguard

Legend
Do you view "Only show guild offers" as "Guild-Only" trades, or as "Show trades created by guild members" . . . I've seen both interpretations.
All reads as the same thing to me with “only show guild offers” being the clearest that it’d not showing non-guild
 

Agent327

Overlord
A further issue has emerged relating to the Trading area. The roll over text for the checkbox to limit the list to guild trades is unclear and states, "Only show guild offers" is an incorrect translation of the German language original which more correctly would be translated as "Show trades created by guild members"

Do you view "Only show guild offers" as "Guild-Only" trades, or as "Show trades created by guild members"? . . . I've seen both interpretations.
You do know there is no German language original? That is a bad German translation from the English language original, so if that is a problem for you, you are addressing it on the wrong forum.
 

Thomas Covenent

Lieutenant-General
There is no such thing as a 'fair' trade, simply because there's so many ways to acquire goods now, and some are so efficient in terms of pop+space/square that it can be considered game-breaking in an overall 'game balance' viewpoint. (*cough*sleighbuilders*cough*)

Onus is on the one taking the trade to decide if they consider the offer reasonable/fair for themselves.
ie: an EMA player w/0 event buildings, ToB + 2 boosted goods factories will almost certainly never touch anything outside of the 1:1/2:1 ratios for same-age and/or current:previous era trades.
But say another EMA player who has camped out for 6 months, has 6x Sleigh Builders + Lv10 CF + Lv20+ Dynamic Tower + Lv9 Shinto Temple probably doesn't care much about giving away a few 100 extra goods since they can simply farm whatever they want. (and in large quantities too!)

So really, the whole idea of a 'fair trade' is simply down to an individual players needs vs. owned resources.
 

DeletedUser117706

. . . what I’d lIke to see in the game functions is an option to put a trade as “exclude guild”. That way you can keep the “fair trade” for within the guild and do whatever outside of it without impacting the guild
Brilliant, yes please! ::)
 

Blayze99

Private
Do you view "Only show guild offers" as "Guild-Only" trades, or as "Show trades created by guild members"? . . . I've seen both interpretations.
Do you mean that it can be interpreted as:
- only show trades that have been made by guild members
as well as
-only show trades that have been created by guild members AND that were made with having the 'guild only' option selected?
 
LOL - are you serious.

Don't take trades if you don't like them. If your guild doesn't allow them - go to another guild, instead of trying to outwit them.

Also, Hood only trades doesn't/wouldn't keep guild members out that are in your hood!
 

Any Empire

Sergeant
Since GBG started, a very few goods' trading ratios have really changed. On USA, Beta and EN-INT at least, BA goods trade for heavy premiums, sometimes even 1:1 for EMA (or higher) goods.

Not that long ago, BA goods were routinely described as worthless. Now they are in high demand for many GBG players in IrA and EMA. From swap thread pleas for EMA goods, it may be a problem for some other eras also.

GbG negotiations can use up a lot of goods. Previous age goods never are awarded in GBG, and only a pathetic few in GE. This makes demand for BA (and maybe other eras') goods more complex. It's already sparking a discussion in my guild a about what shoulld be “fair” trading.

It may sort itself out as folks put up more previous era productions, or stop upgrading event buildings. Yet these actions might also change how folks play FOE.

And that is probably a very good thing. Keeps the game from becoming fossilized and repetitive (notwithstanding the sadly boring and repetitive St Paddy’s day event ….).

It is a tiny bit similar to how international currency exchange rates changed. Between WWII to the 1960s there were largely fixed exchange rates for currencies. That (Bretton Woods) broke down in 1973, due to market forces after unpegging the dollar to gold. While the dynamics differ, the symptoms are a bit the same. “Fair” trading ratios for FOE goods might flex a bit and become more sensitive to actual demand, at least for near future.

Long-term, for convenience, most guilds will likely either stick to the existing voluntary guidelines; though maybe some (?most?) guilds might try to be more flexible, or maybe even adopt a different “fair trade” guideline.
 
GbG negotiations can use up a lot of goods. Previous age goods never are awarded in GBG, and only a pathetic few in GE. This makes demand for BA (and maybe other eras') goods more complex. It's already sparking a discussion in my guild a about what shoulld be “fair” trading.
Star Gazer is your friend, I need to take mine much higher as 99 goods a day is ok but not great, but it has taken away the need to trade for previous era goods
 
On the other side of this issue, is how do we ensure a large volume of unusual trades that fill up a guilds trading pages, are not going to create overhead for other guild members searching for trades that need to be filled?
in my guild we have a fair trade thread where members only place fair trades on ,
wich gives em right to create unfair trades cause there is that thread members have a place to find the fair trades un-fair trades can be created but not placed on that thread you can go 1 step further by adding an un-fair trade thread but i think adding an additional thread for that would just floud msg center unessarly
 

Galladhorn

Monarch
No, I dont hate infair trades – They are named unfair because of how the game is set up. But sticking with the nametag – unfair trades are nessesary to buy eg. goods for GBs, or to help Guild stockpiles, or guildies in need of particular goods. What I do hate is trade spam, players posting endless lists of the exact same trade offers – you cant sell anything if there is no demand, pilling it up in the store front does not help – it just screams we have all this crap which we cant get rid off – So even in that case, being able to post Unfair trades might be a help to get rid of goods that are not in high demand. That is how basic trade works in general – Supply and Demand. And as already mentioned above, nobody is forced to take a trade – so posting an unfair trades is hardly unfair, it might be inappropiate but hey this is a Game not the real world, no low paid worker or any poor famer in a third world country is gonna suffer because of it.
– So it is more that I disslike the "Fair Trades"
 
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