Borrowing from Treasury

[joesoap]

yeah, more work for founders/leaders, having to keep track of who asked for what & when
have you guys ever been leaders/founders of a guild with a policy for higher players to give lower players the goods for traz, have yous had to produce loads of extra goods just so every player can get their traz & have you then asked for help with gvg, even something simple like using their traz units for setting a siege or filling a defence slot, or asked the players to use their units to do GE only to get nothing back, what do players do with their traz units, whats the point in stockpiling them so as i previously said i dont agree that players should get free goods from the treasury just so they can benefit themselves with no cost to them
if leaders/founders think a player is worth helping then they will do it using their own goods in trades that are private, doing it using guild goods is visible to every1 & being seen to help some & not others isnt a good way for any guild to run

 

[DeletedUser110195]

That traz example is precisely why guild leaders need to determine who cares about the guild and supporting it, helping it grow, and direct treasury assistance to those people. The bleeder, the lazy bastard, the fair weather guildy....these are the ones leaders need to weed OUT. If a guild member has contributed nothing, done no GE, helped no one, just sits there and collects their daily FP while being a drag on the guild...these people NEED kicked, or driven off.

Allowing guild leaders to draw from the treasury and help guild members build helpful GBs adds incentive for members to be team players so their requests for such help will be considered.

 

[DeletedUser108047]

-1
First - As stated above I can think of a number of ways this could be abused. Every example noted above in support of the idea can be abused or is open to abuse either by the guild, guild management or the beneficiary of the largesse. Adding extra rules to try and stem abuse simply makes it much more complicated to police, play or implement or code and makes no sense to me. You only have to look at any Tax Code to see how this could run away and become a nightmare... The current rules are simple and work. The OP & supporters may not like them - but they are clear and functional. Design should always follow the Keep it Simple Stupid principle.

Second - the design of the game is broadly to get players to consume goods, coins, supplies etc to advance in the game. Goods in Treasury have been 'consumed' in that they are no longer available to individual players and have been re-purposed to the guild. The player gets status points for making the donations. Making this a reversible decision doesn't extend game play according to the original design... it just answers the demands of the impatient. This idea is, like many others, an attempt to make the game easier. If you want goods... get them within the framework of the game by building your city a better way. Or don't donate them to treasury... or plunder them.... But stop trying to move the goalposts... just because you are bored or frustrated!

Third - I agree with the unstated point that guild treasury can be stagnant for some guilds and that there needs to be other purposes for guild treasury goods especially non GvG guilds. The idea posted sometime ago by Bagoas the Greek for a Guild City to be constructed by Guild members would be a much better use of excess treasury goods. If there was to be any tweak to allow goods to be consumed by guild members it should be limited to an enhanced buy out option in GE... so in addition to the unlock fee per level - if the guild wanted to spend the goods from treasury for completion of encounters by their members using negotiation that could be allowed (it would be akin to using goods for putting in DAs or laying sieges in GvG). That too would need to be carefully balanced (ie made very expensive) as players could otherwise get personal status points for donations AND then do GE with the goods - thus having their cake and eating it too...

Fourth - there have been any number of ideas proposed around allowing guilds to trade goods in treasury in either the main market or a secondary market. These have not progressed mostly for the same game design reasons noted above and to prevent abuse. This idea is no different and I think unlikely to proceed

 

[DeletedUser110117]

I like a lot of what you are giving as feedback. My guild tries to achieve that everyone have at least the Observatory to fund our guild expeditions and we do some GvG maps too. Some of our goods have exceeded 10,000 and we have had 40+ members that have been together over a year. We have a great group that loves to help and that's huge in a game like this one. We open level 4 every 3rd week or more in pushed in guild expeditions and have everyone do a mandatory 16 encounters each week. We even keep a google docs spreadsheet with 15 or more figures we track so if we wanted to we could add who we've given goods to. I know that between my Arc and Observatory I produce 16x5 and 6x5 a day and if I could build my friends up with it I would. I joined my guild 2 1/2 years ago in I believe early middle ages and had my observatory then, I'm only in Postmodern age now and just got my Arc, but how many of those goods came from me. I should be able to do as I please with them in my opinion. We have 4 leaders from different countries and we can be on around the clock if needed to do what our guild needs from us.

 

[joesoap]

That traz example is precisely why guild leaders need to determine who cares about the guild and supporting it, helping it grow, and direct treasury assistance to those people. The bleeder, the lazy bastard, the fair weather guildy....these are the ones leaders need to weed OUT. If a guild member has contributed nothing, done no GE, helped no one, just sits there and collects their daily FP while being a drag on the guild...these people NEED kicked, or driven off.

Allowing guild leaders to draw from the treasury and help guild members build helpful GBs adds incentive for members to be team players so their requests for such help will be considered.

guild leaders/founders already do this without involving the treasury so thats not a good enough reason to have this change, also if a player helps me out then i would appreciate it more & remember it more than if i had just been given the goods from a faceless treasury

 

[DeletedUser103370]

guild leaders/founders already do this without involving the treasury so thats not a good enough reason to have this change, also if a player helps me out then i would appreciate it more & remember it more than if i had just been given the goods from a faceless treasury

I know there are a lot of different ideas about this, but I think it could be done in a very very simple way, which wouldn't put any pressure at all on leaders.

• leaders can give a limited amount (depending on age, and only for members for a certain time)
• once cap reached for someone, no more can be given (so for example if 1000 is a cap for stone age, you give me a 1000, you can't give more. if i put back a 100 to the treasury, you'll be able to give a 100 more. once I've payed back all the stone age stuff, you'd be able to give me other age goods)
• leaders won't have to remember anything at all, it could be simply tracked in a dedicated tab in the guild UI

This way what you get is essentially a loan, a borrowed amount.
Right now it works like this: you want to build a GB, you start trading for weeks, sometimes even for months till you get the necessary stuff.
With borrowing the amount upfront from your guild, you'd be able to get the GB straight away, after that you'd still need to trade for a long time to pay back.

 

[DeletedUser110117]

What are "Trophies" from posting on here? Are they something I can place in my town? I'm still trying to figure all of this out, as I just really like to play the game. I've been looking at this moderator stuff they keep asking about but don't have the time. I play in 10 different towns and Co-lead 2 of them.

 

[DeletedUser110117]

In reality I don't think Inno would ever approve this as they want us to spend money on diamonds to buy goods we need for GBs. I don't do this option. I will only spend diamonds on expansions or guild expedition negotiations to finish level 4.

 

[DeletedUser103370]

In reality I don't think Inno would ever approve this as they want us to spend money on diamonds to buy goods we need for GBs. I don't do this option. I will only spend diamonds on expansions or guild expedition negotiations to finish level 4.

Yeah that's true, on the other hand a feature like this wouldn't simply mean that from now on everyone would be able to just build their GBs for free. If the amount is limited, then for example you could build up a GB from one age, but you wouldn't be able to get more till you payed it back.
Also don't forget that there is simply not enough stuff in the treasury, to lend goods for all players in all ages, I think this would help to get crucial and prioritized GBs build up faster, and for only certain players.

Just an example, when I've built up my traz, the leadership gave me the goods from their own pockets basically for free (as we traded 3 ages higher), but they wouldn't have done it for anyone. Back then we co-oped a lot, - nowadays I work much more and have less time to play - with a feature like this the treasury could be put to a better use.

And I think there are other ways to implement diamond sinks, - which is well under way all the times anyway -, if you look at the hot topics many of them are about paying features. (cosmetics, and others too)

 

[joesoap]

Also don't forget that there is simply not enough stuff in the treasury, to lend goods for all players in all ages, I think this would help to get crucial and prioritized GBs build up faster, and for only certain players

so this means that leaders/founders get to decide what gbs and players are important in the guild?
in a guild there are loads of players with different strategies & its up to them to decide how to play & what strategy & gbs best suit them, if the treasury was to be used as a goods bank then any good leader/founder would put their personal opinion aside & try to help every1 progress in the game , telling players they can only get goods if they build certain gbs that you agree with is a sure way to cause friction & upset in a guild

 

[DeletedUser103370]

so this means that leaders/founders get to decide what gbs and players are important in the guild?
in a guild there are loads of players with different strategies & its up to them to decide how to play & what strategy & gbs best suit them, if the treasury was to be used as a goods bank then any good leader/founder would put their personal opinion aside & try to help every1 progress in the game , telling players they can only get goods if they build certain gbs that you agree with is a sure way to cause friction & upset in a guild

Why, tell me is it different now??
How the hell they could put their personal opinion aside? The leaders job to know who fills what purpose in a guild, and their job to know who worth what...
They do that based on their personal opinion, not some kind of democratic voting.
It's more than natural that some players are casual, some are common, some are hardcore.
Some are gvg oriented, some are only pve.

Now who would you support to build a traz? A player who never plays GVG??
No. As a leader you'd have to prioritize, and obviously you'd first support the hardcore players who play gvg. That's logical.

So as you said, it's up to the member to decide how to play, but accordingly it's up to the leadership to decide how to handle guild resources...
The leadership decides how many levels they unlock in GE and spend goods from the treasury, because they know what they plan with those goods. Maybe a month from now they plan an expansion in a gvg map, so they save goods from that era etc.

It's absolutely no difference with this lending goods proposal.
And just as it doesn't cause "friction" in the guild if the leadership decides they support certain members based on their merit, it wouldn't cause friction if they decide who they lend goods.
On the contrary, if you see in your guild that members are "rewarded" for their contribution to the guild, that motivates you to contribute more if nothing else.

 

[Greywolf]

Could we have a feature for leaders of a guild to withdraw up to 25% of goods from the treasury once a month to help other members with goods to help them grow? If not all goods than maybe limit it to 10 types a month. These withdrawals would be for helping get Great Buildings and tech tree things done. When the neighborhoods changed it made us be balanced out and now it is hard to have more people to trade up / down with to help build your stocks. I know in my guild we try and help each other, but if we had the old way neighbors were willing to take many trades to benefit them. I don't mind balancing goods to help a guildmate grow with me and it would keep some guild hoppers from doing so all the time.

-1
The thread title is 'Borrowing from Treasury' which implies that the borrowed goods will be returned to the treasury at some point. Yet when reading the post it only mentions the withdrawing of goods. No mention whatsoever on returning the borrowed goods.

The implementation of this idea will have far reaching effects on this game, effects that IMHO will be game breaking. With all these high level Arcs there are huge stockpiles of goods (especially from the most advanced ages) in most treasuries. Those surplus goods will be redistributed amongst the (or certain) guildmembers. Resulting in a big influx of goods into the game. All of a sudden goods buildings become obsolete and will be scrapped. The already powerful Arc will become even more powerful and Atomiums will start to pop up left and right. Other GB's like Royal Albert for example will be weak in comparison because it provides only unrefined goods in a smaller quantity. Creating even more unbalance.

Better scrap this idea IMHO.

 

[joesoap]

Why, tell me is it different now??
How the hell they could put their personal opinion aside? The leaders job to know who fills what purpose in a guild, and their job to know who worth what...
They do that based on their personal opinion, not some kind of democratic voting.
It's more than natural that some players are casual, some are common, some are hardcore.
Some are gvg oriented, some are only pve.

Now who would you support to build a traz? A player who never plays GVG??
No. As a leader you'd have to prioritize, and obviously you'd first support the hardcore players who play gvg. That's logical.

So as you said, it's up to the member to decide how to play, but accordingly it's up to the leadership to decide how to handle guild resources...
The leadership decides how many levels they unlock in GE and spend goods from the treasury, because they know what they plan with those goods. Maybe a month from now they plan an expansion in a gvg map, so they save goods from that era etc.

It's absolutely no difference with this lending goods proposal.
And just as it doesn't cause "friction" in the guild if the leadership decides they support certain members based on their merit, it wouldn't cause friction if they decide who they lend goods.
On the contrary, if you see in your guild that members are "rewarded" for their contribution to the guild, that motivates you to contribute more if nothing else.

a guild has loads of different players, some may never do gvg but they may have an obs adding goods or HoFs adding power or they may like producing goods & do every trade they can, a person that doesn't do anything to visibly help the guild may be the 1 that provides questlists for events or is involved in every conversation & keeps the banter going which makes players want to log in & spend their time in that world, there are a lot of posts rating different gbs & classing some as useless, if a player wants to build a gb i wouldnt build & doesnt help the guild then thats still not a good enough reason not to lend them the goods, they obviously see a purpose to building it & as a leader/founder we have to support them regardless of our opinion, if leaders/founders dont think a player fits into the guild then they get rid of thm but if they keep them in the guild they have to be treated as equal to everybody else & given the same privleges

 

[DeletedUser103370]

a guild has loads of different players, some may never do gvg but they may have an obs adding goods or HoFs adding power or they may like producing goods & do every trade they can, a person that doesn't do anything to visibly help the guild may be the 1 that provides questlists for events or is involved in every conversation & keeps the banter going which makes players want to log in & spend their time in that world, there are a lot of posts rating different gbs & classing some as useless, if a player wants to build a gb i wouldnt build & doesnt help the guild then thats still not a good enough reason not to lend them the goods, they obviously see a purpose to building it & as a leader/founder we have to support them regardless of our opinion, if leaders/founders dont think a player fits into the guild then they get rid of thm but if they keep them in the guild they have to be treated as equal to everybody else & given the same privleges

You're right, but that's exactly what the leadership has to know and handle.
They know who does what (in a good working guild at least), and so they can decide who they support with what. That depends entirely on the leadership and the guild's goals. In a purely gvg guild, obviously the main indicator will be the participation in gvg. In another type of guild, perhaps contribution to the treasury, etc. It's not different now either.
Don't tell me that you know any guild whatsoever, where everyone has the same support from the leadership regardless of their contribution.
I can't agree that everyone has to be treated as equal, since not everyone contributes equal. Support must reflect the effort, doesn't matter if we talk about a feature when the leaders can lend you goods from treasury, or they simply support you with FPs, goods etc.

-1
The thread title is 'Borrowing from Treasury' which implies that the borrowed goods will be returned to the treasury at some point. Yet when reading the post it only mentions the withdrawing of goods. No mention whatsoever on returning the borrowed goods.

The implementation of this idea will have far reaching effects on this game, effects that IMHO will be game breaking. With all these high level Arcs there are huge stockpiles of goods (especially from the most advanced ages) in most treasuries. Those surplus goods will be redistributed amongst the (or certain) guildmembers. Resulting in a big influx of goods into the game. All of a sudden goods buildings become obsolete and will be scrapped. The already powerful Arc will become even more powerful and Atomiums will start to pop up left and right. Other GB's like Royal Albert for example will be weak in comparison because it provides only unrefined goods in a smaller quantity. Creating even more unbalance.

Better scrap this idea IMHO.

Yeah I agree, the idea is not fully formed, but that's why we try to give our 2 cents.
In general what we talk about is the ability for the leadership to be able to use the guild's resources (goods in this case), to support their members, which is a very good idea imo. The only question is how to handle it.

 

[joesoap]

Don't tell me that you know any guild whatsoever, where everyone has the same support from the leadership regardless of their contribution

i would assume any player who has been here for a few years has come across at least 1 guild like this

I can't agree that everyone has to be treated as equal, since not everyone contributes equal. Support must reflect the effort,

most contributions cant be measured, most higher players can donate far more goods/fps/medals than lower age players without it impacting their game/progress but in relative terms the lower players could be giving more

 

[vikingraider]

Helping the powerful become even more powerful could be a reason for many to stop playing.

 

[DeletedUser12400]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/o5JqqJB.png[/IMG] ​

In general what we talk about is the ability for the leadership to be able to use the guild's resources (goods in this case), to support their members, which is a very good idea imo.

It's a great idea however too open for abuse and overall making the game easier. I believe guild resources should remain for guild usage and not for individual players.

if leaders/founders think a player is worth helping then they will do it using their own goods

"Borrowing!" You'd be talking of a necessarily complex method to ensure payback, though it could not be certain.

All of a sudden goods buildings become obsolete and will be scrapped. The already powerful Arc will become even more powerful and Atomiums will start to pop up left and right.

The way the idea currently is presented it gives absolute power to guild management. They don't need goods buildings and extra goods to produce goods; They can easily produce special goods such as promethium and orichalcum; They can exchange those goods for forge points ect. This idea simply kills purpose of the market; goods building; great building ect. In my view this idea makes the game easier.

 

[Greywolf]

Yeah I agree, the idea is not fully formed, but that's why we try to give our 2 cents.
In general what we talk about is the ability for the leadership to be able to use the guild's resources (goods in this case), to support their members, which is a very good idea imo. The only question is how to handle it.

The question is whether guild resources should be used solely for the guild or if those resources should be usable by individual members as well.

If you allow guild resources to be used by individual members, then this will create multiple problems/issues that need addressing. To name a few:
- devaluation of goods buildings
- devaluation of multiple GB's (Royal Abert Hall, Lighthouse, St Marks etcetera)
- Arc, Atomium, Observatory on the other hand will become much stronger
- recalculation of points to remove all points gained from donating goods to guild (otherwise players will withdraw goods from guild to re-donate them and inflate their points ranking)
- goods management and city management will become a lot easier, numbing down a big part of the game
- abuse prevention (the longer I think about it the more ways I can come up to exploit this system)

Understand that you open pandora's box when you allow goods to be taken out of the guild treasury.

 

[DeletedUser103370]

The question is whether guild resources should be used solely for the guild or if those resources should be usable by individual members as well.

If you allow guild resources to be used by individual members, then this will create multiple problems/issues that need addressing. To name a few:
- devaluation of goods buildings
- devaluation of multiple GB's (Royal Abert Hall, Lighthouse, St Marks etcetera)
- Arc, Atomium, Observatory on the other hand will become much stronger
- recalculation of points to remove all points gained from donating goods to guild (otherwise players will withdraw goods from guild to re-donate them and inflate their points ranking)
- goods management and city management will become a lot easier, numbing down a big part of the game
- abuse prevention (the longer I think about it the more ways I can come up to exploit this system)

Understand that you open pandora's box when you allow goods to be taken out of the guild treasury.

What we are in confusion here, is the term you guys use "allow guild resources to be used by individual member"
The reason why I say this is simple, if this is implemented as a "loan", then it's not like that.
It's not like the leaders could give "free resources" to their members, more like they could "advance" the needed resources, to simply put it could turn the process

Gathering resources for a long time -> Build a GB
to a
Build a GB -> Gathering resources for a long time

Or

Member needs some resource for an event -> he get's it from other members through trade
to a
he get's it from the guild treasury -> pays it back later

This is not about handing out free stuff, neither making the game easier. To be able to do that, the guild needs to have a healthy treasury, which is up to the members, and in many cases takes months if not years.

But I think the most important thing you misunderstand guys, is how this would work in real life. Somehow I feel that you think this would mean that from now on, every member of every guild would be just simply able to get this advancement, which I'm sure is not the case. This could be merely used for prioritized projects, simply because if you think about it realistically, even in a guild with 30 members, handing out 1000 goods from any era would mean 30k, which I'm sure most of us don't have.

But even if we would, as I said, it's only a loan, which if has to be payed back before giving another, would essentially mean that you'd have to use trade and the other usual channels of goods gathering just as you do now.

 

[joesoap]

how do you make players repay the loan?